150 - IMLS destruction transcript

Kelly:
[0:00] Because I have a double ear infection going on, so I cannot hear great. Fun times.

Justin:
[0:08] Okay, it's recording. I've told it to do multiple audio streams. Yeah, the thing was I had to have, IT has a thing on it where it has to have at least a password or everyone's authenticated or something else.

Kelly:
[0:24] It's all good. We're all good.

Justin:
[0:26] Yeah this is my first time using my zen cat or my my zoom for for this work account so i'm glad that it is set up yeah

Jay:
[0:37] Zen caster pulled that on us uh when

Jay:
[0:39] We've the first time we tried to do the party

Kelly:
[0:42] Girl uh commentary track it's so weird because i thought i was like maybe it's because i'm signed into the work one so i signed out of the work one to see if that solved it um and that didn't solve it i like restarted i ran every you know like i did everything on my end that i could um and then i went and signed into the work one again and set up like my own meeting and it was fine so i don't know if there was something funky about that particular meeting but um we're we're we're good we're we're ready to roll yeah.

Jay:
[1:13] This works we probably should have used zoom from the beginning uh like instead of getting reliant on zen caster but it was easier to get people to join the zen caster it's

Justin:
[1:25] So much easier to just like and to download your separate tracks and everything i i get it it's yeah.

Jay:
[1:33] Hopefully it'll give me the separate audio tracks on this i've i told it to so we'll see all right so um no sadie this week so what we normally do is we will i'll play the intro music, which actually are these coming through? Okay, good.

Kelly:
[1:51] Unfortunately.

Jay:
[1:53] Yep. So I'll play the intro music and we introduce ourselves. We use our pronouns. You don't have to. I'll say we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? And wait for me to say that because I try and do it real fast because people tend to jump in when we do it. So I will say we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? And then we'll you can do that and we'll get started.

Justin:
[2:14] Sounds good.

Jay:
[2:15] All right. That's good.

Music:
[2:16] Music

Justin:
[2:49] Are he and they.

Jay:
[2:51] I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, him. And we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Kelly:
[2:59] Sure. My name is Kelly Jensen, and my pronouns are she, her.

Justin:
[3:05] Welcome. It's been so long, I don't even remember how to do my own show.

Jay:
[3:11] You were out here, and then we forgot how to podcast.

Justin:
[3:15] Yeah uh okay it just gave me a update i just made it just it just zoom just gave me like a thing and it freaked me out but i think it's fine okay um so welcome um we were wanting to do an imls episode and it was going to rely on your writing so much we were like we should just have kelly on because otherwise we're just gonna be reading reading

Kelly:
[3:43] The articles i i appreciate you reaching out and uh i'm you know i i'm glad

Kelly:
[3:49] to be here but not glad to be here if that makes sense like i wish.

Justin:
[3:52] We were bringing on for a fun one our

Jay:
[3:54] Show used to be fun we promise

Kelly:
[3:56] It used to be so fun talking about libraries but i feel like that has not been the case in like four and a half years so uh actually i should be fair even before then because we had COVID-19 in 2020. So it's been a while since we've had a lot of fun in the library world.

Justin:
[4:13] Yeah. No, I mean, we were always complaining. I don't know what Jay's talking about. We made up things to get mad about when there wasn't anything to get mad about. So it's fine. For people who aren't aware of who you are, though, why don't you tell us about what you do? Sure.

Justin:
[4:31] I am an editor.

Jay:
[4:33] At Book Riot.

Justin:
[4:34] I've been there for 10 years full-time, probably 11 and a half years, all told. Before I took that job, I worked in several public libraries in Illinois and in Wisconsin. So my background is in librarianship, and then I transitioned to editing, and I do a lot of writing and coverage on things going on in the library world. Because it is a world that I'm not wanting to leave, but want to have a role in in a different way, if that makes sense. And so really the last four and a half years have been a lot of coverage of censorship things. I did a lot of that coverage before, but it certainly wasn't as prolific as it is now.

Jay:
[5:20] Mm-hmm.

Justin:
[5:22] Well, as was kind of the prediction in, you know, 2021, we've gone from, you know, this book needs to be pulled from the shelves to let's just get rid of libraries altogether. So it's been a lot of coverage in the last year on libraries more broadly. And unfortunately, what's going on now at the federal level with libraries across the country.

Kelly:
[5:47] Which i think we yeah not like predicted this but we're like well they're going after this and they're going after this and the goal is actually

Justin:
[5:53] To do this.

Kelly:
[5:55] That's going to be the the goal then they're just framing it this way hate being right

Justin:
[5:59] I know i'm like i i wish i could have been wrong i wish that all the people in 2021 who are like you are like absolutely you know crazy for saying this you are you know you're fear-mongering I wish I had been like but uh alas I I will say you know some of the tactics have been surprising even for like as much as has been kind of there and and easy to predict but um I think that the speed of it and the uh lack of action to uh solve some of this has been surprising.

Kelly:
[6:35] Yeah, honestly, the IMLS stuff and, like, firing Carla, that honestly, like, once the administration kicked in, I was like, oh, they're going to do this. But, like, before that, that wasn't on the table for me, and I don't know why. So I was like, oh, okay, that's happening.

Jay:
[6:52] Well, she went through the first administration,

Kelly:
[6:55] So it was kind of strange to expect it.

Justin:
[6:57] Yeah. And, you know, they found ways to to get to libraries in as direct route as they could by going through the Department of Defense. Like they were able to knock out a lot of stuff that way. You know, going through to hit public libraries. There are a few more hoops they had to jump through. And, you know, that's why the IMLS stuff is surprising. And yet it's also, I guess, logically makes some sense.

Jay:
[7:26] Yeah i think in some ways the imls is just kind of a it just came up on a list of small federal agencies because it wasn't eliminated by itself it was it was part of other ones in in the act right yeah i you know talking about this over the years though um one thing that was i think around 2022 um because we saw the 2021 was we saw this particular wave of um you know the groomer uh obsession the anti-queer obsession the uh the uh red panic um around like emily um we saw this sort of new focus on queer and black literature as like a reaction to black lives Matters, reaction to George Floyd protests in particular in the summer of activism around that. The thing I was always saying was, I was saying around 2022 was, you know, I expect that this sort of internet heavy part of it will go away and it will be taken up by the people who are like the Facebook grandmas who do the day in day out kind of work going to meetings.

Jay:
[8:48] But that has maintained this kind of virality of know it's obviously there's too much other news that crowds it out but the the the approach has been kind of exactly the same which is just that anything about queer people is grouping children it's inappropriate for children and that has stuck in a way that i'm kind of surprised that people aren't able to just say queer people are cool uh it's good to be gay and like like like straight White people have really dropped the ball, I think, on saying that, of just being like, this is weird. Why are you saying gay people are, like, knowing about gay peoples is in some way grooming or teaching children about sex? It's just teaching them about people who exist. And, like, you know, people have really fallen over on that.

Justin:
[9:40] They have. And, you know, to be fair, white people fell over covering and responding to Black Lives Matter and to the protests and to the, you know, pulling of books by black and brown authors, which is where it started.

Justin:
[10:00] It was, I think, April or May 2021 is when the left turn in education, like, had their first pick the awful book and started all their stuff on it.

Justin:
[10:11] And they were just they were so successful at this. And one of the reasons is they had some snappy language that they were able to create fear around. The other thing is they are very successful at using places like Facebook and taking advantage of the algorithm that works in their favor on Facebook. And I think that they've really continued to leverage that. You know, I'm thinking about your comment in particular about straight people falling over, not calling out how weird it is to, like, not stand up for queer people.

Justin:
[10:45] You probably saw this and have likely talked about it yourselves. But, you know, part of the bill, the funding and the budget bill in Ohio for state libraries, there is a provision in there that said all public libraries in the state were going to have to move any LGBTQ literature out of eyesight of anybody under the age of 18. We're not just talking like restrict. We're talking can't even be an eyesight. Right. And so when the folks who were fighting against this bill, which would have like decimated libraries financially, were fighting, they purposely did not tackle that part of the bill. So now so now it's a whole lot of, oh, we have to push back against this. And it's like, wait a minute, you knew that this was in there. You knew this was in there and you didn't do anything about it.

Kelly:
[11:35] Because to a lot of people, censorship means library doesn't have book anymore. When censorship can mean any type of, like, Emily Knox has talked about this before, where actual censorship is like state censorship. If you can get it in the bookstore down the road, it's not necessarily true hardcore censorship. But in a library context, even just labeling it a certain way can be a type of censorship. And so, like, moving it, making it less accessible, even if you still have it, even if people can still technically get it, just by that act of obfuscating it and making it less accessible is a form of censorship.

Justin:
[12:16] Yeah emily since you brought emily up um dr emily nox who is fantastic um she she uses the four r's as her description of censorship which is uh restriction redaction uh removal and uh oh goodness i'm gonna like blank on what number four is right now because i'm on the spot but it's four r's what library censorship looks like and so you know the sexy to put in quotes here The sexy type of censorship is the book being pulled from the shelves and, you know, being being taken out altogether. And it's like these other forms of censorship are just as terrible. And what are you you know, I keep going back to like, what are you telling your queer patrons, your queer staff? What are you telling straight people when you're like, OK, we're going to fight for the budget, but we're not going to fight for this provision in the budget where we have to move all these books out of eyesight of anyone under the age of 18? It's a compromise.

Kelly:
[13:13] Right. Ugh.

Justin:
[13:15] Right. And that compromise is throwing a whole group of people under the bus.

Jay:
[13:19] And it's weird because you see when... Like when a legislator does stand up for someone, like I can't remember the name of the representative who's trans, but she was on a committee and someone just kept misgendering her. And then the chair of the committee, she's just an older guy. He didn't really know. He didn't have the right words to say what he was trying to say, but he was just like, look, what are you doing? This is disrespectful. Like, what's wrong with you? Which is really all you need to do is just say, what's wrong with you? What are you doing? This is a weird thing to believe.

Kelly:
[13:55] Like, I would rather someone use, like, incorrect, even offensive terminology for me, but not know that it's offensive and is trying to say a good thing than someone who knows the right things to say and is still trying to insult me, you know? Right, right. Yeah.

Justin:
[14:09] And it's just, it's such a shame that, it would be a shame on any level that there isn't better advocacy from everybody in the library community over these topics. But it's even more embarrassing and downright shameful that four years of this has not led to any better outcomes. Four years of this has not led to, wait, maybe we should also stand up for queer people in the library at the same time that we're demanding a budget to have these libraries that are meant to represent everybody in our community.

Kelly:
[14:43] This is why you should unionize. I'll just get on my little soapbox and be like, fucking unionize. You can bargain around this. This is changing your work environment, your work conditions. You can bargain around that. God damn it.

Jay:
[15:01] Yeah. I do want to, before we really get into the IMLS stuff, talk about how you got into working at BookWrite. because I know we have a lot of people who have different career paths. So how did you go from being in libraries to writing about them?

Justin:
[15:19] So while I was working in libraries, I ran a really popular book blog for a long time. And that writing had connected me to a bunch of other bloggers at the time. We're talking, oh my gosh, talking about blogging now in 2025 is wild because it was so popular in, like, 2007, 8, 9, 10, like, you know. And I made so many great connections at that point that one of, I should say several of those connections were folks who created Book Riot. And so when I was doing this writing, they had asked if I would consider freelancing for them. I saw it as an opportunity to, like, reach a different audience, reach a bigger audience than what I was doing with my own blog. And that just it ended up being a really good fit. I was asked then if I would ever consider working for them. And I was working in a not bad library situation, but it was a part-time situation. And there were some changes in administration at that library that just kind of made it not an ideal fit. And so it was an opportunity I took when it came up. And it's been an opportunity that I've stayed with because it's worked out great. And I've been able to keep in the library world without having to work in a library.

Jay:
[16:40] Yeah. So do the DIY thing that you are thinking of doing over the weekend. Spin up your blog, start posting, start making stuff because you never know where it'll go.

Justin:
[16:51] Yeah, for real. And the thing is, even if it doesn't get you a different career, it makes you, it helps you find your voice, first of all, but also So it really connects you to people who you end up creating really powerful relationships with. And that matters. You are able then to build these networks and leverage these networks, especially if you want to fight for the things that are right in your life. Again, it might not change your career, but it can change your life for sure.

Jay:
[17:22] Yeah, get out there and meet people. Do something that you like and put it out there. There's so many opportunities to do DIY stuff.

Justin:
[17:31] And it doesn't have to be perfect. And it shouldn't be perfect because we're all human. And I think it's really important to emphasize perfection cannot get in the way of you're just doing the thing.

Kelly:
[17:42] You know yeah when i was doing my like digital gardening more religiously when i when i had a academic library job so i had to think of like publication ideas more i was doing a lot of like note-taking and zettelkastening and everything and the the there was this concept in like the digital garden and online note-taking space i saw a lot called like of like learning in public like working with the garage door open kind of thing and like being vulnerable enough to show a thought in process and not a perfected thought uh to the world to like show how your thoughts like the things you're thinking about and things you're working on how they change um and that it's not like and like giving yourself space to show that change and to like that be as important as whatever finished product it's scary but it's it's fun like highly recommend it and

Kelly:
[18:42] It's great because that connects you with people too like the number of people who have reached out to me who you know they aren't necessarily writers or bloggers they have whatever their creative like passion is and they'll say something like wow it's been cool to watch you go from this point to this point you know and and that matters like showing people like You grow, you change, you learn. And yet, at the court, there's still you. It's still your voice. And, you know, there's a lot of things we could say about the internet, good and bad, but like... One of the cool things is you can really watch yourself grow and learn and change and develop. And yet you can only do that if you start, if you try, if you put it out there.

Justin:
[19:26] Yeah. So, yeah, I know we have a lot of people early in their career and I just think it's good to, this is probably the best advice I can give people is just follow your interests and also just put something out there because then you'll meet people who also make things and people who make things are sexy. And people want to talk to you and people want to like uh see what you're all about so you know

Kelly:
[19:49] Truly really and truly and i mean i don't know there's i think back like when i started in libraries and it's like blogging was the big thing but now there are so many cool outlets and so many different ways to create and engage and it's like pick something run with it hey if it sucks do something different that's okay like we all have all these little like i i love the digital gardening like metaphor i'm gonna run with it but we all have these like little seeds and plants that we've put everywhere and you know we find the thing that then works really well and we tend to it so.

Justin:
[20:27] As far as like the work you've been doing uh for book right how do you keep tracking the imls stuff as it comes out because i i put a lot of stuff in the notes document about like local stories in case we want to talk about impact, because it seems really hard to track aside from like the big cases.

Justin:
[20:46] Oh, it is. So I have been actively tracking like as many book censorship related stories as I can since.

Justin:
[20:58] Really early 2021. And a lot of what I do is constantly update the keywords that I'm searching. And I tend to search every day. I know some people are like, why wouldn't you just set up an alert? I don't trust that. I feel like it misses stuff and it doesn't give me the opportunity to like really look at every single thing. Because even if you put in a keyword, sometimes it pulls up garbage. Other times it misses good stuff. So it's, you know, it's a labor of love and frustration at the same time. But, you know, so I've got that piece of it. The other piece of it is that I've built so many connections that folks are excited. I shouldn't say excited. Folks are, no, excited is the right word. Excited to share with me the things that they find and the things that are important to them, knowing that I can then share it with my network. And so, you know, I've got a couple of folks who are especially invested in the IMLS story because it impacts them personally in some capacity. And so there've been a number of people who've been just like on top of sharing this stuff with me. And like, I'm so appreciative of that because then I can work from something.

Justin:
[22:16] You know, you can track the cases, you could track the news stories, but sometimes you miss it. Sometimes it doesn't show up. You know, we all know that Google search has just gone. Can I swear on this podcast?

Jay:
[22:29] Yes.

Justin:
[22:29] Okay. Google search has just gone to shit, right? And like, no matter how good we are as librarians in searching for stuff, we miss things or, you know, it's just, it's a crapshoot where you are, aren't going to find. And so I'm really grateful to folks who are like this is the thing that they are tracking and so they are then able to share it with me I'm going to like, zoom out a little bit here and say, you know, one of the things that I constantly tell people who want to get engaged in any kind of activism is to pick one thing that you're passionate about and like let that be your thing. Because whatever terrible thing is happening within that world is probably happening in other areas of the world. And there are people like you who have made that their focus. So you don't have to do it all. You can't. And so I'm deeply appreciative of people who are taking this particular issue, IMLS, and making it their one thing and then sharing it so that I can then spread it out. And so other organizations can spread that information out. And so that I can, you know, keep people as up-to-date as possible on this. It's been really interesting because there were a number of updates this week to what's going on with the IMLS. And I feel like even the outlets that I tend to turn to and think that are really good have not covered the stuff.

Jay:
[23:52] No, I've been hearing most of it from you.

Justin:
[23:54] Yeah, and I don't know if it's because it's not getting well publicized, which is very likely.

Justin:
[23:59] And also, I think that there's just such a fire hose that trying to keep up with it at this point is like, we're all doing our best.

Jay:
[24:11] So where should we pick up? I guess we should start kind of from the beginning. So it was an executive order gutting the IMLS, firing every single person in it. And there are two lawsuits. Could you give us the overview of the two main lawsuits going on?

Justin:
[24:29] Sure. So there's two lawsuits. One is Rhode Island versus Trump. And this is a lawsuit that involves 21 state attorneys generals suing the Trump administration over the gutting of the IMLS. The second lawsuit is ALA and AFSCME are filing a lawsuit against Keith Sonderling, and theirs is also against the dismantling of the IMLS. So these are two lawsuits pretty much covering the same thing, but they do have some differences to them.

Justin:
[25:01] Right now, both have had some action on them. I'm going to start with the ALA case because this one is a little bit easier, I guess, at this point. The judge in that case has issued a temporary restraining order, which says that the Trump administration cannot do any more damage to the IMLS right now. Like, that is what the order is.

Justin:
[25:25] That case is going to continue to proceed and we'll likely hear more on that before the end of the month is what I'm hearing in terms of like my sources are saying end of the month the restraint the temporary restraining order was put in place because of a date that would have allowed for like further firing of staff if I'm remembering this correctly so they got that temporary restraining order to stop further firings. That's the ALA case. The case with the state's attorneys general had a ruling last week that said that the administration needed to undo everything that they had done and they could do no further damage. It was an injunction in the case. So that order came, I think it was Wednesday or Thursday. Friday afternoon, there was a notice that went out that the Trump administration was going to appeal this. Not surprising, but we didn't know at that point what the appeal would look like. Fast forward to what day is it today? Wednesday? So Tuesday, I believe it was Tuesday, Monday or Tuesday, the appeal was to get a stay in the injunction, which would allow the Trump administration to ignore what the judge had said that they had to do, and allow them to continue as is.

Justin:
[26:51] In theory, because of the decision in the ALA case, they would not be able to do more damage to the IMLS, but we know how this administration has been when it comes to rulings to the law. Mm-hmm.

Jay:
[27:02] Nothing probably would have stopped.

Justin:
[27:05] So that was the latest on that. But a couple of really interesting things came up in this attorney general's case. One, Keith Sonderling put in a, I can't remember the name of it. I'm looking really quick to remember the name of what this document was called, a declaration. And basically he bashed the IMLS staff. He said that if the folks who were fired were to come back, they would create a toxic work environment, that they had been ceding information about what was going on with the IMLS. Like, it was this, I think it was 13 points, sorry, 19 points. He claimed that re-employing staff members would cost the agency, you know, $900,000 a month that they couldn't afford. And he said that only about 100 grants would remain. It read as if it was full of disdain for the entire agency and everybody who worked in it, as well as all of its purposes, which we know was the intent.

Jay:
[28:14] Right.

Justin:
[28:16] So there was an update, a status update given yesterday in the court. So in the ruling with the injunction, the defendant, so Trump's side, had to say, like, what they were doing to, like, meet the order. And one of the things that came up that I think maybe hasn't been publicized very well, it certainly was news to me, is that any decision made in the case with the 21 state attorney generals is only going to apply to those states. So in the arrest of the United States where the state attorneys general did not get involved in this lawsuit, the federal government doesn't have to reinstall those grants that were pulled from them. And as you probably can guess, the states that are filing the lawsuit are your blue states, are your states that have been a little bit more proactive in protecting the right to read, a little bit more proactive in protecting their libraries. And so the same victims who are going to be most damaged by the gutting of the IMLS are still going to be damaged, even if this lawsuit does pan out in favor of the state attorneys general.

Kelly:
[29:35] I do want to say, as someone in one of those cushy blue states... Um, they might be the, your, your city, your state, your library administration will do a lot of talking about protecting libraries, that libraries are under attack. And they won't say dick about library workers. And they will throw you under the bus. I don't

Jay:
[29:56] Care where you

Kelly:
[29:57] Are. Just FYI.

Justin:
[30:00] Yeah. Yeah, and they, you know, they're not going to come out and say what they should say, which is that this is about people of color and queer people and people who are not, you know, modeled after what the Trump administration calls the American citizen, which is not any of us, probably.

Jay:
[30:19] It's also going to greatly impact rural communities, which are going to be the most impacted by, you know, interlibrary loan services that are affected. And it's not mentioned in the update that the defense put in that you mentioned. But I also imagine, because you can read this and it'll sort of show you how the government's dragging its feet about rehiring people. Because it's also using it as an opportunity to be like well uh they need to people who were remote workers need to report in person to the dc offices which obviously people can't like relocate in time there's also something with one of their unions so that they are on paid administrative leave if they're in the union uh so that the union has time to renegotiate based on like the return-to-office stuff. Yep. But I imagine something that's not mentioned, and I wonder if they will try to not reinstate employees that are remote in states that are not part of the suit.

Justin:
[31:27] Oh, that I don't know. That's a really good question.

Jay:
[31:30] It's not mentioned, but because the section is, as to grants and contracts, the agency defendants have been working to reinstate grants. After conferring with the plaintiffs, defendants conferred their understanding that the injunction only applies to plaintiff states. So the plaintiffs agree that this only applies to them. But it depends where IMLS has people hired, I imagine.

Justin:
[31:54] Yeah. I was just going to say, I don't know how many of their workers are remote. I would imagine, because it's, I was going to say, because it's a fairly small agency. If they're remote, they probably are local to D.C. or in the DMV area as opposed to across the country. But I could be wrong on that.

Jay:
[32:11] Yeah, I don't know if there's like field offices or anything in some areas or regional offices, but I guess most of that's probably done through grants. Anything that's done outside the D.C. area is just done through a grant, so you're not an employee of IMLS.

Justin:
[32:26] And we know, too, you know, so the grants to states go through the state libraries. And one of the things that started to pop up this year that hadn't quite popped up in the previous few years is that at least three states tried to kill their state libraries this year. Those are South Dakota, Arkansas, and New Hampshire. It didn't succeed in any of those states. Though in Arkansas, they did succeed in abolishing the board overseeing the state library and having that reappointed by their lovely governor down there. But, you know, if if states don't have state libraries, then the IMLS doesn't have to distribute money because who's going to pass it on? And so that was a really interesting, like, convergence of things happening. If you can't get rid of the IMLS straight out, maybe you get rid of the state library so that the IMLS cannot distribute grants to states because who is going to give that money where it belongs?

Jay:
[33:34] So, I think that more or less brings us up to date on the status of the IMLS. Yeah. What's your plan covering this going forward?

Justin:
[33:45] So, excuse me, I'm going to continue to cover it. And I just... I really hope that it continues to get more coverage than just me, and I hope that we see really smart takes on what it actually means, what it'll look like when it plays out. Every library has done a really great job mobilizing people, and so I see them continuing to do that same thing. At this point, we are doing a lot of waiting for what the next judgment's going to be, what the next news we'll hear about is going to be. But one of the things that I think is worth mentioning is being really realistic about this. Both these court cases are going to be tied up in the system for a long time, and that is intentional. The Trump budget, as it currently stands, defunds the IMLS anyway. And so if they can continue to kick that cam with the lawsuits to October 1st, won't matter what the decisions are if there's no money for the IMLS. So really right now, it's what's.

Jay:
[34:49] Going to happen between

Justin:
[34:50] The end of May and the start of October. And that's going to be both what these two court cases end up saying as well as what the budget looks like. And we'll get a sense of like what the reality of IMLS is probably through this summer as we see those two pieces play out.

Jay:
[35:13] Yeah. I wonder, because I've been running a Google Alert just kind of to get a feel of what the reporting looking at IMLS programs ending locally looks like. So I've been saving up, you know, these local news stories and saying, um, what, what do you imagine will be most effective? Cause I think raising a stink about it is always better because it can influence the judges. If, if the national conversation is there, um, it obviously will influence the budget. Uh, so. Groups like Every Library or like the ALA, like what should they be focusing on, do you think, in terms of like messaging right now around the IMLS?

Justin:
[36:01] That's a good question and a tough question. You know, the messaging was bad from the start. There was a lot of misinformation going around about what would be impacted here. And I think that some opportunity to alert people was lost because of that. And, you know, for example, here's the thing that, like, stood out to me is how many people were spreading the message that this would cut Libby. And it's like, nobody, this is not about Libby. Yes, it will impact some e-book and e-material services in some states who use this grant money to fund these services.

Justin:
[36:48] That's one piece. So, like, we, in terms of messaging, like,

Justin:
[36:51] we got to stop with the misinformation and, like, be very clear on what's going to happen. Um, the reality is the services that are going to be most impacted are going to be those that the messaging is just not going to be as sexy as they're going to kill Libby. Um, tribal libraries are going to be devastated by this. Um, prison libraries are going to be devastated by this. There's two populations that are difficult for the average white American citizen in Trump's America to to think about or to understand, like, what impact that loss will really have on these populations as library workers, as library workers who are socially engaged and conscious of what the impact is. Like, there's tremendous messaging there. There's tremendous things we can talk about. But how do we get that, like, message to the average person? How do we do that? I think that's a big question mark, right? And particularly when it comes to prisons, because we love our prisons, but we don't want to talk about the fact that, you know, prisons are the number one place of censorship in this country. And it's always been that way.

Justin:
[38:03] You know, so that's part of the challenge. The other part of the challenge is like, man, there's just been so many people who are, like, good. You know, the leopards ate their faces when it comes to rural services and to, like—, You know, red states don't deserve the hate that they get because they are in situations where politically, like, that has just been entrenched, where voters have been disenfranchised, you know. And so while I'm also in a blue state that's nice and cushy, I always like to say, like, I don't have the right to, like, be proud of that. Like, it's my job to work harder to make sure that my neighbors and all the red states around me also have access to information and to facts and to, you know, all of these things that it's so easy to just be like, well, I'm fine here in Illinois. It's like reality is one, no, I'm not. But two, like, I give a shit about people in Iowa, too, you know, and I want them to have library resources. I want them to have access to information. I want them to have a robust interlibrary loan system. And so my job is to continue to educate around that and continue to say, like, we need to give a shit about our neighbors.

Kelly:
[39:16] Yeah, there's no such thing truly as a red state or a blue state. Right. What is true is in some states, gerrymandering has been extremely effective. Yep. I'm from Illinois originally. Illinois is not a blue state. Chicago is blue. Yep. Yep. The rest of it, the town where I'm from is a sundown town, and that's in Illinois.

Justin:
[39:38] And I mean, if you want to get into that, I mean, Illinois had the most sundown towns, has the most sundown towns of any state in the country. And so it's like, you know, it's so easy to like sit back and think that it's like, well, you don't know anything about the history of the stick, you know. Yeah. But, you know, that's so I coming back to your question and trying to like circle back to it. It's so tough because these are topics that we have been like screaming about for how long and how important it is to stand up for marginalized people and for people who these services are so crucial to their everyday existence. And yet, you know, you then have the I'm tired of having empathy for people and these people got what they voted for. And also all of the issues we have around talking about things like prisons.

Jay:
[40:32] I didn't answer your question,

Justin:
[40:33] Except I think I answered your question at the same time. It's a big question mark, right? And it's.

Jay:
[40:41] Like, one thing I would like to see is, you know, a website where you can put in your zip code and say, how has IMLS being defunded? Because you can still make the fight about the defunding to get people involved. Like, how has it affected you? And a lot of people it's not going to. But the kind of stories that I was paying attention to were like, you know, local like Virginia Beach Mocha Museum of Contemporary Art had a grant terminated. Like you can find something within, you know, a couple hundred miles of most people that is going to be relevant to something they could have enjoyed. This is like your money being taken away, your, you know, your services.

Justin:
[41:24] There is a really great website through Minnesota. I'm trying to remember. We had this handy little document here, and I dropped in. The Minnesota government had created a federal funding disruptions website where you could see where the temporary disruptions were, the permanent cancellations, and then what's tied up in the courts. But I could not find anything in there IMLS specific. So I don't know what grants they're looking at or like what federal money they're looking at. But something like this that focused on IMLS would be spectacular.

Justin:
[42:06] Because then you can just go in and be like, you know, my zip code is this. What is impacted within a, you know, 100-mile radius? And you're going to find something. You know, I think a lot of people missed that when the IMLS was gutted, three states lost all of their funding, California, Washington, and Connecticut. So in most of the cases, the grants given to individual institutions or to projects were cut. In the case of these three states, it was everything to these three states. And the reason that those three states lost their funding was because they had the word equity in there. Because when they applied for the money, part of what they have to do as states is include equity in how they're going to distribute that money. That was the red flag to get their funding pulled. It has since been theoretically restored. But, like, that is how, one, haphazard all these cuts were. But, two, also how targeted they were. Um, you know, so I, like, I can't imagine that if people in these states knew that that was happening, that there wouldn't be more shouting, more protesting, more, um, making a stink about it.

Kelly:
[43:26] And also, no matter what kind of library you're at, it's not just IMLS grants and funding getting cut that will affect you. I'm at a public library, and we had a newspaper digitization program that was through the...

Justin:
[43:43] NEA?

Kelly:
[43:44] Yeah. Through the NEH, right? And so that... Because we keep being like, oh, we're not going to be affected by IMLS too much, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then like this huge program that we had is just gone um through us another grant the homosaurus right now we're like how many of us are moving to canada so that like the homosaurus could be based in canada instead of having to rely on grants in the united states because like we're all volunteer right and like we have to have money to do things somehow like there's things outside of the IMLS that are still affecting libraries too.

Justin:
[44:23] For sure. And, you know, you brought up the newspaper digitization project like that. The last I saw on that was, you know, that is, there's a, the National Newspaper Digitization Project. I can't remember the exact name of it, but it's run through the Library of Congress and that stopped. So while what's there won't go away they won't be adding to it yeah we know how important that project has been for as long as it's been running and how many people take advantage of it yeah, Yeah.

Jay:
[44:59] Um, where next? Uh, one thing I wanted to talk about is what has this disruption already caused in lost momentum? Um, because obviously the grant cycle takes a very long time. So what kind of impact, like, how would we even begin to wrap our heads around what kind of impact this has for let's limit it to libraries and like IMLS stuff.

Justin:
[45:28] You are asking like the most impossible questions, you know, and I know that's intentional, but I don't have an answer. And I think that's because we don't know yet. And part of the reason we don't know is because it has been so effing chaotic. You know, the grants cut one minute and then you get a letter that says, oh, just kidding. It's reinstalled. But I don't think people have actually seen the money yet. And so it's a big question of like, will the money actually show up? Um, I, I've been thinking about, um, so I'm on my library's, um, friends board of the friends of the library. And one of the things that has come up is one, um, as a friends group, there was some messaging that went out about what happened with the IMLS. And I thought that that was, like, such a smart move to inform people who care about the library about what's going on and also to maybe help the library out without having to be on the spot about answering all these questions.

Justin:
[46:31] But one of the things that was reported to us is that, you know, the... One of the consortiums here has been working to figure out what they're going to be able to cover, what they're going to see in terms of their member libraries. The big libraries here are going to be fine. And by big libraries, I mean suburban libraries. The funding, you know, from IMLS, like, is such a small portion of the funds that, you know, it's not going to make a big impact. However, the rural libraries, the small libraries that are part of the consortium are going to be devastated by this because they require so much more of that money. And so, you know, it's hard to say right in this moment what that's going to look like, but it's not hard to predict that we're going to continue to see libraries that are doing fine continue to do fine. And those libraries that are smaller, more rural, that do not have a robust tax base, not do so fine. An interesting thing that I noticed this week is one of the other things that I've been tracking and not really writing about or covering, but just like tracking for my own interest, is library layoffs and library budget cuts over the last.

Jay:
[47:42] Year because they

Justin:
[47:43] Have been showing up a lot more. This week alone, I saw two different libraries see that the county cut funding from their budget. Not the city, but the county. And so I'm wondering if we're going to see more of that, too, further impact, especially these small libraries that depend on a bigger, like, area to get some of their budget. So the answer is we don't know, but also we know. And that's going, you know, as those smaller libraries then struggle, that is going to have an impact on the bigger libraries, too, who are providing more services with less money because they want to provide those services. But their tax base isn't growing either. So I hope that answers your question. But I know it's not the answer that I think is most helpful.

Jay:
[48:38] Well, yeah, I mean, I'm one thing I'm really worried about is the fact that, you know, once this money disappears and momentum is lost, we're really not going to see any of the states stepping up to fill that funding gap. And this is, you know, you talked about, like, seeing libraries disappear. This is a really effective way for a lot of states to decrease the number of their public library obligations.

Justin:
[49:11] Totally. And that is what was, you know, at stake and purposely behind the bills to get rid of those state libraries, too. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, for some states, the destruction of the IMLS is their permission slip to like really go at it.

Jay:
[49:31] Yeah, it's always the discussion of, you know, if we didn't already have public libraries, how politically impossible it would be to create them. Yep. But it's not politically impossible to lose them. And then recreating them is still politically very difficult. I mean, some communities, we talked about, like, the Patmos Public Library, you know, the community just defunded their own library and just said, you know, for three years, you know, and just said, But we're not, you know, it took a long time to get the community to care enough to reinstate that funding. It's not impossible, but it's really,

Justin:
[50:08] Really difficult. And I'm sure you've seen the update on that, too. They had to close their doors last week because five staff members left. They're sick of being harassed. They're sick of the toxic environment. And so, you know, that's the other thing that comes with it. Okay, finally, they got their funding, but what strings are attached to it? And when it is a profession that is already, you know, at the edge of burnout, what happens when there's even more pressure applied to these folks who've been through the ringer? They give up. And, you know, we can be mad about that. And I think there's some fair feelings there. But also, can we blame them for being like, I can't be paid $15 an hour to be called a groomer and harassed for the rest of my life, you know?

Kelly:
[50:54] Yeah like this is one reason i've been like for years railing against the fact that like for so many people librarian or not librarian like public libraries are synonymous with children um that like public libraries are for children and that's what they're for and every fucking keynote you go to at a stupid conference it's always someone being like and my stupid kid loves the library and when i was a stupid kid the librarian showed me books and wow look where i am now and like sure that's great but like this like the Lee Edelman who lives in my head who's just like, ah, children, they're bad.

Kelly:
[51:36] The capital C child that is associated with public libraries in particular, that I believe people who support libraries have been trying to reinforce is also part of how those who want to destroy libraries are doing it. You associate it with children and then you can show, and now these are a threat to children. And then the well-meaning people go, but oh i care about the children too and so we have to get rid of this right like it's um it's the same kind of like reproductive futurism that lee edelman talks about of like caring about like a future non-existent child and their safety over like actual existing conditions and people who exist um so like i'm begging people to like when you talk about libraries please stop just mentioning them in relation to children, because it's actually not helping. I think it's hurting.

Justin:
[52:32] Well, and it also is just, it's BS too, because none of these people actually care about the rights of children. And that's an issue that I think needs to be really dug into, that children are the most marginalized group in this country. They are, yes. You know, who's standing up for their rights? They are. But are we listening to them? No. Nope. Because we know better. But yeah, Yeah, you know, you bring up a really great point, and you also bring up, you know, the opportunity to mention that, you know, it's librarians, you know, continue to be seen as a, continues to be seen as a gendered profession. And so, you've got that issue with it as well, you know. And so, that impacts the kind of activism we see around it. It impacts the kind of self-advocacy that happens within libraries, and that stuff. And I just, if it could have started in 2021, maybe we'd be in a different place right now. But we're not. And so what do we do looking forward? Like, it's very hard for me to, like, put anything on because I'm like, I told you four years ago what could have helped. I don't know now. Like, we are in a very different place now that I don't think any of us have ever been before. And we don't have a great place to, like, pull from historically. Like, what happens now? um i i don't know.

Kelly:
[53:54] Caveat that while i call kids stupid yet they are yes the full autonomy and rights for children yeah

Justin:
[54:02] I i knew what you were saying no i knew what you're saying.

Kelly:
[54:07] No kids don't have rights total total sea change here i'm bad now no no no

Justin:
[54:14] I know what you mean though like it you know there's an infantilization.

Kelly:
[54:17] Yes that's a better word for it the lee edelman who lives in my head, who is a constant character on this podcast. Yeah. Hmm.

Jay:
[54:26] I still haven't read No Future, but I will eventually.

Justin:
[54:30] Um, yeah, I just read the.

Jay:
[54:33] Uh, reporting on the Patmos library. I hadn't heard about that. No, yeah. Yeah. Like literally last week. Yeah. Five people walking off the job, uh, which yeah, good for them. Right. Uh, it's, it's very, the reporting on it is very, well, it's whatever they, they go over the background but then they're like uh uh deb mccula executive director of the michigan library association said tensions have been high at a handful of public libraries around the state in recent years over sexual themed books on the cell on the shelves uh too often we're faced at views that are so far right and so far left i'm sorry but like how many like leftist outlets are and that

Justin:
[55:20] She's hearing from.

Jay:
[55:22] She listened to us.

Justin:
[55:26] I think that in general, reporting on libraries is pretty bad. Yeah. If only we still had a robust local news ecosystem, we also wouldn't have necessarily ended up in this place. I just saw this. I'm going to call it a tweet on Blue Sky, even though that's not what it's called. It's whatever. Yeah, there is a quote tweet to somebody who is saying, you know, they're looking at rich mega donors on the Democratic side are looking to find the next, you know, the left Joe Rogan, blah, blah, blah, blah. And somebody quote tweeted and is like, you know what, what if we just reintroduced local news everywhere, wrote about the local restaurants that have opened, the sports games, and then how the GOP is screwing everybody over. Like, the results would be a lot better than looking for Joe Rogan, like, yeah, you know what? You're right. Imagine if we did have a local news ecosystem still that would cover local stuff and keep people informed about what the GOP really is doing in their communities and to them and to their rights and their... Democratic institutions, I can go on and on. But anyway, that was kind of an aside that I just needed to vent about local news.

Kelly:
[56:43] Form relationships with your local independent reporters or independent reporters that cover libraries or labor issues or things like that. I went to a labor conference at UMass Amherst a couple of months ago, and there was a whole panel of independent labor journalists, including Kim Kelly. I got to meet Kim Kelly. It was really cool. Oh, my God. That's just a side note. um but like they were like please develop relationships like with individual reporters especially who you might give exclusive stories to um because these are especially if it's like to do with workers who have lives and interests like those are interesting stories we want to write about and we want to get to know you as as people and share your story um so like reach out people like you and like other people like develop those relationships like that you know you might not think that like what your library is going through is like newsworthy or important but like it probably is like there's always shit happening yeah

Justin:
[57:49] And you know the number of stories that i can't cover is massive but it is really helpful to even hear from people about what's going on because that is stuff that i one carry with me but two informs like how i think about I'd write about these issues and how I talk about these issues. Like, I do get to keynote some of these library conferences sometimes, which is great. And I don't talk about my time as a kid in the library. I talk about censorship and what's going on in libraries. Thank God. But, like, those stories I hear from people are really useful because they do give more context and more nuance to what's actually happening on the ground. That's where I'm ending that one. But yes, independent journalism, I think, is so essential right now. Like, I know it's essential right now, but I think it will continue to grow. It's just... The number of people who are doing it who are already working full-time jobs um you know that's that's the other the other piece of it is just like our new system is so screwed up and um people got to eat so it's hard to also find the balance of what is free what do i you know ask people to pay for that is like a whole podcast yeah i've.

Jay:
[59:07] Seen some interesting stuff before for media used to talk about like what gets behind the email pay like email wall what goes behind an actual paywall and like how do they you know balance the need to like stay solvent as a media company and also like get information out

Justin:
[59:24] Yeah well i mean i will say that and since starting the censorship stuff like my biggest beef has been how many of these censorship stories are behind paywalls which means that nobody in the community knows that books are being banned in their libraries or in their public schools because they can't find out. Meanwhile, they can Google what they've heard going around town and find the Facebook page for their local Moms for Liberty. That's free and open, and they get that angle on the story rather than the actual story itself. And that's really another reason that they have been so successful in their campaigns is their garbage is free. Meanwhile, you want to go to your local, it's not even going to be a local news, it's going to be a regional news, likely for the biggest metropolitan area near you. And it's going to be behind a paywall, so you don't know actually what's going on. You know, and bless libraries because there are some incredible databases where you can get that information. But that is another hurdle for folks who are just like, I just want to know the news. I'm not going to go to my library's website, to the news bank, to log in. You know and that's not the library's fault it's a fault of the system.

Jay:
[1:00:37] Yeah. On that happy note.

Justin:
[1:00:40] Sorry.

Jay:
[1:00:43] I think we can wrap there for tonight. Kelly, is there anything that you want people to check out? Where should they go? Should they follow you on social media or should they leave you alone?

Justin:
[1:00:54] No. You're welcome to follow me on social media. I'm HeyKellyJensen on Blue Sky.

Justin:
[1:01:02] I, if there's anything you want to follow of mine, I would suggest the Book Riot Literary Activism newsletter. It's free. That information will not go behind a paywall. We're like, we're playing with paywall stuff, too. But this information is so important that it's not going to be behind a paywall. And I think, I guess, the takeaway I have here is how important it is to, one, support your local library. and that is not just going and getting a library card and checking out books. Those are great things. That is not activism on part of your library. Actually show up to board meetings. Run for board if you can. Get to the polls and vote in library elections and public school elections. Public schools and public libraries have a lot in common when it comes to what's going on right now, so I always tie those two together. Thinking bigger on the national level. Write to your representatives. Get on the phone with them, tell them that you want IMLS funding restored. If your state attorney general is part of the lawsuit, write them and thank them for being part of the lawsuit. If your state attorney general is not part of the lawsuit, get on the phone with them and ask them why they are not part of it and what this means for the people in your state. I think those are some decent action steps for now. There's a million other things you can do. I assume that your listeners have a good grasp on how to be engaged.

Jay:
[1:02:28] In the fight.

Justin:
[1:02:29] So, you know, Yeah, I mean. It doesn't hurt to check. It doesn't hurt to check.

Jay:
[1:02:37] It doesn't, but I also don't want to. I was just saying. What? I wasn't making fun of anyone. Well, he's not seeing the face he made. He was like, well. I couldn't see the face I made, so I have no idea.

Justin:
[1:02:52] I didn't see a face because I was talking to my microphone.

Kelly:
[1:02:56] There you go.

Justin:
[1:02:57] But, I mean, you know, it is important to pay attention to what's going on and do something with it. And as I said before, like, I'm a big proponent of the pick the one thing and really go all in on that. That is the best way to, like, save your brain space, to, like, save your humanity rather than trying to do it all. But it's always worth, you know, at least keeping tabs on what's going on. So I tell librarians, you know, if you subscribe to the Literary Activism newsletter, I certainly do not anticipate or expect that you're going to click all 150 bajillion links that are in there every single week about all the terrible things that are happening. However, you can save that newsletter and you can search in your, you know, inbox for a particular state or a particular library or a particular politician and that stuff's going to pop up. Then you've got an archive of what's happened. You know, it's a research tool. It's an archive as much as it is a roundup of like what is happening in this moment.

Jay:
[1:04:02] Yeah, that's how I use a lot of my Google Alerts, too, is I'm not going to look at them as they come in, but there's, I often will go back and start pulling things together for, you know, an episode or something, so.

Justin:
[1:04:14] Yeah, and I mean, I think about something like Patmos, right? Like, that library has had a four-year history here, and we can pull it up real quick just doing a Patmos search. All the links are there, you know? So, yeah, I mean, this is not an uplifting moment. It's not an exciting moment. And I think that there are a lot more questions than there are answers or guesses about what could happen. But, you know, the folks who are advocating and doing activism around libraries are going to continue doing that. I have been particularly heartened watching average parents showing up and like building these incredible networks and incredible systems to push back. And that helps me as somebody who is easily frustrated and cynical over the whole thing being like, man, that mom in Florida who otherwise would never have cared, like created this whole thing and is now like in the ears of everybody in that state all the time.

Justin:
[1:05:15] That stuff matters. And seeing that happen, you know, is like that is what we want to see happen. And I think and hope we will see more of that happening as people better understand the real scope of what's happening on the national level now.

Jay:
[1:05:32] Mm-hmm.

Justin:
[1:05:33] So I guess that's an optimistic note to end on, right?

Kelly:
[1:05:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Jay:
[1:05:37] Jay, you have something to promote? Yeah, yeah.

Kelly:
[1:05:41] So... About how library workers in particular can face this moment, especially organizing as workers, right? How do we get these things in our collective bargaining agreements? How do we unionize, et cetera? I know a lot of people have been very scared about threats to the NLRB and increasingly anti-union environments, even in quote-unquote cushy blue states, right?

Kelly:
[1:06:10] And a couple months ago, I shared an interview that a comrade in North Carolina did about organizing in the South. Public sector workers can't collectively bargain in North Carolina, for example, but you can still unionize. And so how do you do that? Well, that same comrade and some more are doing a whole webinar panel about organizing in the South and what that looks like. How do you do labor organizing outside of the National Labor Relations Act? There's going to be a public health care worker on this webinar there's going to be a public school teacher a public higher ed worker and a public librarian and all of these struggles are linked and interconnected and so if folks are interested in like learning about like how especially people in the south have been doing successful labor organizing and if you are wanting to like learn how to do labor organizing at your if you are a public sector worker as like a librarian. I will have the link in the notes. That's gonna be June 8th at 11 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Central and 2 p.m.

Jay:
[1:07:25] Eastern, and it's free.

Justin:
[1:07:27] And before I forget, we have a live show coming up during ALA. That's a thing we have.

Jay:
[1:07:35] There are still tickets available June 28th if you are in Philly or if you are just attending ALA. We also have a sticker, a conference sticker fundraiser. So if you would like to get a conference sticker that says Library Punk on it, that helps get us outdoors since we do not have funding to go from work. So that will help get all of the hosts into Philly.

Kelly:
[1:08:03] And it's going to be great. It's going to be Library Futures and Jenny, who we've had on before, and Allison from Library Freedom Project are going to be our two guests. So it's going to be a party.

Justin:
[1:08:17] Yeah.

Jay:
[1:08:18] It's gonna be great yeah all right well uh Kelly thanks so much for coming on

Justin:
[1:08:22] Thank you for having me and uh you know hopefully a year from now we can reconvene and have some better news on the IMLS you know um and if not well we keep on keeping on and doing what we have to do right mm-hmm.

Jay:
[1:08:38] All right I don't have to do my usual outro so good night woo Bye-bye.