Untitled

 avatar
unknown
plain_text
6 months ago
7.0 kB
44
Indexable
This is a bit of a weird debate, in the sense that I'm fairly convinced that Hanno cannot meaningfully injure Hulk and that Hulk cannot reasonably hit Hanno, making the whole thing come down to how quickly and effectively either of them (or Fixit, for Wolf's case) can locate and eliminate the opposing VIP. To that purpose, I believe the following things to be sufficiently proven:

1) Hanno's presence sensing + fate guidance are effective enough he won't have much of a problem finding the opposing team, but he won't be able to tell which one is the VIP automatically. 

> The argument Star makes about Wolf skirting the rules by giving his characters "soul defenses" is confusing and doesn't land, mostly because no soul defense is actually argued, they just have the same soul. Even beyond that, none of the feats Star calls "soul-sensing" even mention souls, but presences

> That being said, I believe Hanno's supernatural luck does make it more likely for him to target Fixit first

> I don't actually buy the portal sensing feat. "He wouldn't get there in time" does not necessarely mean he knew the portal would open, especially since it's unclear if this is the narrator or Hanno's inner voice speaking, at least from what I can see from the feat

2) The cameras are not as good as Wolf claims nor are they as bad as Star does. 

> I think questioning if they can ID someone from a different universe is silly, and I don't buy the guy who sets up surveillance systems involving 9000+ spy cameras can't find a regular human because she might go  inside of a building. 

> However, I do buy they have to physically move out from Hulk's starting position to start surveilling the map, and there is nothing actually providing evidence  of how fast they can do so

3) Hanno's speed applies to both speed and travel, even if I don't fully buy the scaling

> I think the blink calcs are kind of bad and often contradict themselves. Hanno is argued to be faster than someone that jumps 15 feet in a small fraction of a blink, but also to be able to boost that speed 3x...by crossing 3 steps in one full blink. This obviously doesn't hold up, and I think Wolf is correct in disregarding it as flowery language

> Hanno does, however, move in ways that make it seem like he's teleporting, fights people who seem to be teleporting by moving, and deflects arrows that are significantly faster than real arrows. Several of these feats involve crossing considerable distances, and his horse moves faster than this

> I don't think Hulk is fast in a way that matters when put against this sort of speed. The only feat that might hold some water is the transformation one, but I don't think the speed at which Hulk transforms necessarely relates to his general combat speed, at least not with no further evidence

> Hanno is also very skilled and capable of fighting people who exist in a conceptually comparable level of strength to the Hulk (shattering cliffs, throwing house sized stones, etc). I don't think he's likely to take a lethal blow from either Hulk or Fixit's gun. His durability or regen don't really matter here

> That being said, neither his striking nor his heat attacks are remotely capable of hurting the Hulk given his military interactions. Hanno might scale to strong people in the sense he can fight against them and win, but he doesn't scale to them in terms of strength, at least not explicitly

4) I think the teleporter is actionable in combat in the way Wolf argues, even if only Fixit is likely to use it defensively. 

> The idea that Hulk must be vaguely aware of a location to teleport to it seems sound, but I don't really buy he must input coordinates in advance or that Fixit won't use it this way, at least based on the evidence provided. I'm aware a lot of this comes down to interpolation rather than explicit incontrovertible evidence, but Wolf shows enough evidence of teleportation being used to avoid attacks and Fixit being willing to fight dirty for me to believe this is the most likely result

> The bigger question and where I think a lot of the match rides, is whether he can do this before Hanno blitzes him. Given his normal human reactions, I don't think this is likely if he's the first to be targeted

5) Hanno's light can disrupt non magical energies and most likely Bannertech shields. Star provides a lot of evidence of it working on things that are "natural" or "sciency", and Wolf never really finds a convincing counter to this. 

> The Arm'chedon scaling comes close, but I think Star is correct in ponting out this is a shield durability feat and not an energy manipulation feat

6) Hulk's environmental destruction is a threat to Cordelia, but only if the fight happens close to her position or if the cameras tell him her position. The starting distance is big enough I doubt he's likely to accidentally kill her without bringing the fight close to her.

> I don't actually think Hannos's luck extends far enough as to protect Cordelia from say, a falling building, given how Star herself provides instances of people Hanno wants to protect being hit by arrows or hurricane winds. The cavalry charge feat is good, but Cordelia isn't joining Hanno in a charge, she's hiding in a building while he leaves her behind, and I don't think heroic luck extends to any distance or to anyone who is allied to Hanno barrying some specific contexts

7) Hanno can't undo Banner's gamma accident. Props for the creative argument, but Wolf's defense about this not being a tragedy is really solid

---

Overall, this is a match I find myself going back and forth on a lot, but I'm giving it to Star. 

What it comes down to is that Hanno holds a significant speed and sensory advantage, which, coupled with his ability to disrupt the shields, gives him some pretty solid odds of taking Fixit out before he can react to his charge.

Furthermore, even if he happens to target Banner first, or if Fixit manages to spot him from far enough to teleport away, there's nothing stopping him from disengaging and going after Fixit again, and I don't think Fixit's fast enough to consistently stay safe, even with the teleporter.

Fixit or Hulk can very casually take Cordelia out if they do find where she is, but the fact that this win condition heavily relies on the spy cameras reaching her location, which happens in a nebulously defined span of time, I'm ultimately not convinced it's as likely to happen as Hanno's win condition

If there's one thing I would have liked to see more of from both sides, is a more direct comparison to the signup justifications to support their own win conditions. As it stands, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing how the tiersetter wins against either character, so some questioning on that direction could have gone a long way in establishing limitations to some of the stronger claims. Still, this was a pretty solid debate and fun read so props to both for that.
Editor is loading...
Leave a Comment