146 - Overdose community response in libraries

Justin:
[0:19] I'm Justin. I'm a free agent, and my pronouns are he and they.

Jay:
[0:22] I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, him.

Justin:
[0:26] And we have guests. Would you like to introduce yourselves?

Nicole:
[0:29] Sure. My name is Nicole. She, her.

Samantha:
[0:32] I am Samantha. She, her.

Justin:
[0:37] Welcome nicole and sam thanks for coming on would you like to tell the listeners what you do start with nicole.

Nicole:
[0:44] Yeah for sure i work with a small co-op in the downtown east side of vancouver we make opioid overdose detection sensors and we work closely with a lot of libraries and i'm lucky enough to have worked with sam who i would love to introduce y'all to hi.

Samantha:
[1:00] I'm sam i work at the Guelph Public Library. I'm the branch supervisor there.

Jay:
[1:05] Nice.

Justin:
[1:06] Great.

Jay:
[1:06] We're slowly making this a public library podcast because used to, both me and Justin were academic and then Sadie was public and now I'm public.

Justin:
[1:15] We have had a lot more public people on.

Jay:
[1:18] Yeah, so it's been great to have more public library stuff focused.

Justin:
[1:21] None of it's on purpose. It just happened that way.

Jay:
[1:23] No.

Justin:
[1:24] Just no people. So, Nicole, why don't you start us off by letting us know what Brave is and, well, tell us in your own words, how would you elevator pitch it?

Nicole:
[1:35] Oh, gosh. So we're a co-op.

Justin:
[1:37] 5-4-3-2-1.

Nicole:
[1:39] So we're a very small co-op in downtown Eastside of Vancouver. We build opioid poisoning detection equipment, which is a complicated way of saying that we build technology that detects when somebody has an overdose. We do that in conjunction with people who use drugs. So, like, with respect to their privacy, the, they're looking for how are they going to trust this specific system in libraries we're building a lot of overdose sensors so these are just like these sensors that kind of sit in the ceiling of like a washroom and they will send either a text message or a team's message to the library and let somebody know that like a person in the bathroom is in trouble is in overdose i'm.

Jay:
[2:21] Really interested also in just the fact that this is a co-op as a like a model of business like just like politically would you be able to talk a little bit more about like being a co-op and why choose that model instead of maybe something like a traditional non-profit structure or a traditional llc or something.

Nicole:
[2:40] We could totally be a corporation right or we could be any number of things but one that sucks. And two, we're all politically motivated. Everybody who's working here is more interested in the big picture than the actual operations of a company. We want to keep you all safe, and it's easier to do it when we're caught, which means everybody gets equal votes and equal shares. We know what we're doing as much as we can with everybody else. I like it as sort of a leftist structure, and I like seeing it gain traction.

Jay:
[3:11] Yeah, I know in Rojava or whatever they're calling it now so that it's not explicitly just a kurdish word but the autonomous region of syria a lot of their like sort of business structures are are worker co-ops and like that's how they do a lot of stuff over there too so it's interesting to see like how co-ops thrive and what they do and stuff.

Nicole:
[3:33] It's easy to thrive as a co-op specifically because of what we're doing right yeah i was doing if i was making clothes or some if i was doing something else i it would probably not be my choice but doing this one thing that we're very good at the right choice right.

Justin:
[3:48] And how does it get started because like we were just talking with the queer liberation library which was on like all volunteers it's an online library they have like they're technically like a private library and it was kind of just like well should we do this are we to do this oh we're doing this oh we're doing this oh we've got like a sponsor now we're doing this like how did.

Nicole:
[4:08] Yeah when.

Justin:
[4:09] Did that happen.

Nicole:
[4:10] Career liberation library is really cool by the way and so eight years ago our ceo moved to vancouver and was like oh there's a lot of people here who are struggling with drug issues and then six years ago decided to build a co-op they started off with like buttons that go into residential spaces that don't have pa systems and the push was like oh hey i'm going to try a non-tested substance please come check on me in five minutes okay into like a few different government grants, which turned into realizing that the spaces where people are dying the most are the ones that are unsupervised and that deserve privacy. And those are usually washrooms. And a lot of the time, those are washrooms in libraries. So they developed a form of radar that does not identify anyone anywhere ever, just sends this text message. And they found a whole bunch of libraries that were willing to try it out. And then we land with people like Sam, who's like changing her community doing this.

Justin:
[5:04] That's interesting with the radar. When you're trying to scope out the problem before you're installing the sensors, how do you know like this is where the overdoses are happening is it from those previous pilot projects that you get the data that then you build on with brave to say okay here's how we're going to change the technology.

Nicole:
[5:23] Okay if you're in a library you know where people are dying first of all yeah but also also it's largely single cells that are left alone and sometimes like men's washrooms you know just depending on what your layout is like and where your front desk is so we're always going for those accessible family washrooms first. And then we're moving into doing multi-stall installations depending on the library. I don't want to be, to be honest, I don't want these sensors anywhere. They should not have to exist, but that they do have to exist. I want them in the right spaces with the right people and I want the right team there available. And that's where people like Sam come in.

Jay:
[5:57] Maybe this is jumping the gun a bit. When we were looking into these and reading about them, and this maybe goes into the privacy concerns a little bit, But one thing I was curious about is like, so it's using radar detection and it will detect like if someone hasn't like moved in a bit or something. Does that throw like false positives for other conditions or like other instances where maybe someone just hasn't been sitting still for a long time or like has IBS or something? Or is there a specific type of movement or something that this is looking for?

Nicole:
[6:28] How still are you when you have IBS, Jay?

Jay:
[6:30] I don't have IBS.

Nicole:
[6:32] I don't know. So, yeah, if somebody is still from...

Justin:
[6:35] He doesn't know the pain.

Nicole:
[6:36] So it is going to throw a false positive. One, you want false positives. That's better than not being a false negative, right? That would be good. That means someone's dead. Secondly, any kind of time where somebody is still in a bathroom that we know they're in for, let's say, 90 seconds to two minutes. Probably a medical emergency. We're not talking about still like, oh, you're leaning over your phone, checking something as you...

Jay:
[7:01] And the lights go out because you haven't moved in a bit kind of thing.

Nicole:
[7:04] Right. We're talking about medically still.

Jay:
[7:07] Okay.

Nicole:
[7:07] It's a stillness detector. And if you are still enough to set this off, you are still enough that I want somebody to get on the other side of that door. I want them to be knocking. I want Sam or one of Sam's staff to be knocking on the door and being like, hey, are you okay? Like, what's going on? If.

Justin:
[7:22] You're still enough for this to detect you you're probably still enough that you're probably not breathing very heavily.

Nicole:
[7:28] It's some kind of medical emergency okay that makes more sense or whether that's like you fell and you hit your head whether that's you had a heart attack whether that's you were playing statue freeze in the washroom that one's really hard i've tried doing that one myself and i can't do it, but yeah okay.

Jay:
[7:45] That makes more sense then.

Justin:
[7:46] We'll circle back because i'm still interested in the co-op stuff. But Sam, why don't you tell us how you got started with Brave?

Samantha:
[7:54] Yeah. So as I mentioned, I'm at the Guelph Public Library and we're kind of, we're not like a big city like Toronto by any means, but we're also not very small. So right downtown in the core. And I've been there about three years. So when I started, it was evident that there was people who were under house and experiencing mental health issues as well as like some drug issues. And it was new for all of us. We didn't really know what to do. And then there was a day where we actually had three people go down at once and it wasn't in their washrooms or anything. It was just like out in the open.

Samantha:
[8:33] And, you know, I, none of us had never experienced that before. So we, some partners reached out to us actually about it. And we're like, you know, like, what's your plan? What are you going to do? Like you're in the downtown core. What are you going to do? It's like, oh, you're right. We don't have a plan. And the advice I got was to just start talking to people, like ask, ask your community, like why the library? Why are you using at the library? And at first, and I thought that was like, I was terrified, totally honest. I was like, I, this is not my world. I don't understand it. But I started to learn the difference between what is actually scary and what is just uncomfortable. And I started having those conversations with people. So one of the individuals who didn't have a drug poisoning at the library and did survive, he came back and I asked him, like, why? And that's when I started to learn about what he was experiencing and the services that were in Guelph, like our safe injection site and the health center. And it kind of just opened up this whole world to me that I had no idea about. And like a librarian, I wanted to know more.

Samantha:
[9:40] So people put me into contact with the harm reduction manager actually at the health center. I got a tour of the CTS after hours. And then we started building out partnerships with something we call Welcoming Streets, which is actually like outreach workers who are out in the community. And they are like de-escalating and also doing system navigation for people.

Samantha:
[10:01] So we continue to partner with them. We even had actually, so the health center came into the library and so did the Guelph police to kind of give us an assessment of our building. So we are in a very old building and our bathrooms are actually, there's nothing on the main floor. There's adult washrooms in the basement and then an accessible washroom upstairs in a hallway near the children's department that is also pretty like closed off. So it was brought to our attention that like our washrooms are potentially going to be a problem. So what we tried to do was like regular security checks, you know, just like knocking on the door. And, you know, that could be someone could have just gone in there and then obviously they're annoyed or someone could have been in there for like an hour and we don't know for sure. So that was like proving to be a bit difficult. And we kept working with partners to like try to figure this out. And then unfortunately, we did have a fatality in our washroom. So that was obviously very horrible, very sad. That is not what we wanted to have happen. And we were all pretty affected by that. So through this network of community partners, we had a lot of people reached out to offer support and just offer condolences. And we kind of kept asking, what else can we do?

Samantha:
[11:22] We're checking bathrooms. We're trying to do all this. And it's becoming very overwhelming. So one of our partners, Hope House, actually mentioned, they're like, hey, we just got this thing called Brave.

Samantha:
[11:33] Have you heard about it? Would you like to use it or like want to see it? So we did a tour and saw how they were using it in their washrooms. And Hope House is like a drop in center. They have like a clothing market and that kind of thing. And so we, my CEO and I went to like view them and just like ask some questions about it. And then we reached out to Brave and it turned out to be like pretty accessible to install. Like even on their website, they have instructions of how to install these centers. And I just handed it to the electrician and they're like, oh, this is great. I can do this. So we just, we rolled them out in our public washrooms, the adults and the accessible.

Samantha:
[12:16] And we trained our staff we talked about what it was and because we were all having these experiences of like not knowing what was going to happen in the washroom and you know unfortunately like the opiate crisis like we it's a growing problem not a going away problem so you know this was just like another tool that we could add.

Samantha:
[12:34] To our like our tool belt there so we went live with them in march of last year and yeah it's been it's been a game changer for us because we do two things with them there's obviously the stillness alert which will tell us when someone's in medical distress but the other thing it does we have it set for duration alerts as well so that sends a notification to one of our service desks as well as our like security team that someone's been in a washroom for 15 minutes So at that point, we just do a wellness check. And that's also been helpful to build relationships with people. So it could be something as simple as like, people are in our accessible washroom, and they're there for a long time, because they don't have access to a shower, or they're like, they're living rough. And it's like, so you get the opportunity to have a conversation with someone about what's going on. And then when they do share, you can offer them something. So like in Guelph, we have a program where there are showers available through the health center or, you know, we can call our welcoming street partners and they can come and connect with someone and do that system navigation that we can't do. So and it could be too, sometimes people just fall asleep because they've been awake for a long time. So they, you know, we can give them a bit of a snack to help them get to the next place and just sort of check on people that way. I feel like I went really fast. Sorry.

Jay:
[13:53] No, no, no. No. I really appreciate what you said when you said like learning the difference between what is uncomfortable and what is scary. I feel like I've seen this a lot, especially with public librarians around Narcan training. And like this is a huge difference. Discourse of like tanglement in in in libraries of like whether narcan training should be mandatory or or not like is that job creep is that other things and you know as someone who lives in a city i actually feel bad that i'm not narcan trained just as like a person who lives here like you never know when you're going to be on on public transit and something happen right but like i feel like would i be like maybe uncomfortable or even scared in those situations yes but it's not like me in danger kind of scared like it's a different type of scared and i feel like around these topics like a lot of librarians don't know and necessarily how to untangle that like i'm uncomfortable or don't know what to do from like but i should do it anyway kind of thing so i just really appreciate you saying that.

Samantha:
[15:03] Yeah it's hard like it is when i first heard about narcan too i was like oh there is no way i could do that like i.

Jay:
[15:11] Yeah and.

Samantha:
[15:12] The fear like there was this rumor we always heard like if you narcan someone they're gonna wake up and they're gonna be so angry and like we've done a lot of training around it and even like today we had more training at work actually about it and you know it's just like a reminder it's like someone's not waking up angry they're waking up because you're standing over them and they don't know what happened so like if you administer narcan to someone like make sure you're kind of stepping back and like get to their level and be calm and, you know, cause they don't know you. And so it's, yeah, it's really unpacking that, that fear piece. And like, I do recommend Narcan training for like everyone just cause like, even if you're not comfortable to use it, learning about what happens to yourself too, after you witness an overdose, I found that to be really helpful. I mean, I was witnessing overdoses before or drug poisons before and not realizing like I was getting anxious because like my adrenaline shot up. Like that's a very normal thing. And it's like, oh, well, what do I do about that? And it's like, well, you know, like get moving, drink water, like these like self-care kind of things to after to take off that edge rate of why you are scared.

Justin:
[16:15] Yeah. I mean, it also is. I understand the kind of skill creep in public servants, because like whenever there's any problem, what do you do? You just like throw police at it right and they're just trained to do like a thousand things really poorly and in the worst way possible and so whenever you have public servants like librarians it's like well train them to do stop the bleed train them to do narcan train them to notice signs of child abuse right like it's it kind of is like because we're one of the public spaces and public servants of last resort that work directly with the public it's like yeah i mean you are going to kind of be handed a lot of responsibilities so i don't i don't want to of lump that into the same issue of like vocational awe which i think is a separate phenomenon from this issue yeah it's more of like something that teachers would also have but teachers also have to learn this you know a lot of things because they're public servants on the front line doing public servant stuff like it's just kind of how it is so i'm not too worried about the narcan discourse also stop the bleed you should learn stop the bleed training people will bleed out before an ambulance gets there so learn how to use a tourniquet keep a tourniquet on you in your house, in your car. It's important. Anyway.

Nicole:
[17:24] It's important when you're talking about dark hand and you have an American audience is to mention that it's not legal in every single state, right?

Jay:
[17:32] No, is it not?

Nicole:
[17:33] It's not. And in some states, it's actually considered drug contraband.

Jay:
[17:37] I didn't know that.

Samantha:
[17:39] Yeah, so for Ontario, we have the Good Samaritan Law, which covers you so that you can administer. If you feel comfortable and it's needed, nothing can happen to you. And as well as if someone is using and has Narcan and you administer it to them and then you call 911, that person won't be charged either. There's protections built in in Ontario. And for us too, we only use the nasal spray. That's the only one we have on site.

Justin:
[18:05] Editor's note, Narcan is legal to carry in Texas. It is fentanyl test strips and clean syringes, which are considered paraphernalia. State laws will vary and are subject to change, so be sure to check the status of naloxone in your area.

Nicole:
[18:23] I mean, the price of my car is just not doing it in the first place. Also, $125 is like wild, right? Sam, that's $125 US. That's like $175 for us in Canada. How much do you spend at the pharmacy to get your Narcan, Sam?

Samantha:
[18:39] So it's paid through public health, so we don't pay for it directly. It's part of our healthcare.

Nicole:
[18:45] And if you went to the pharmacy and you were like, hey, I need a Narcan kit, how much would you pay?

Samantha:
[18:50] Nothing.

Nicole:
[18:51] And would it be like a spy at the front being like, hey, reminder, grab your fresh Narcan kit?

Samantha:
[18:57] Yes. Yeah. So it is considered a prescription, like it'll go on your health card. But yeah, if you are like prescribed opiates for any reason to like for surgery, you know, you do get like a Narcan kit with it or you should. And yeah, anyone, there's just signs in all our pharmacies like ask and get a trained. Yeah.

Nicole:
[19:14] Your training is free. So like for me right now, so I work in the downtown east side, And I reversed two overdoses since November last year. Happened to like work in a hotspot, right? Like a really intense hotspot. But I have an arcade kit in my car, in my purse, in my second purse, and then many at my desk. Because it's easy and accessible. And this is what we do to keep us safe, right?

Samantha:
[19:39] Yes, yeah. And that's like true for like we have it in all our first aid kits at work. Our outreach workers carry it. Like our Guelph-Fleeth have it too. like it's yeah i guess it's just a different vibe over here it's.

Nicole:
[19:53] Interesting to hear about like tourniquets but not narcan.

Samantha:
[19:55] Yeah i.

Nicole:
[19:56] Would do both.

Justin:
[19:57] Yeah i can't really remember if my workplace offered narcan training i feel like it did but i'm not sure now that i think about now that i think about it.

Samantha:
[20:07] Yeah like it's newer for us that we have it and like staff also really were like yeah let's like look into this let's do it like staff really wanted it as well so and for us too it's like it's not a you have to it's like here's an option like the bare minimum is you have to call 9-1-1 so it's just like if it's too much like it's fair like if it's a lot then if you can't do it if someone else can that's great but Yeah, just 911 is the minimum for us.

Nicole:
[20:33] That's the big thing that people who use drugs said. So like, okay, we detect there's still us in the bathroom. Then what? Right? And the initial idea was like, oh, you should call EMS. Like call an ambulance. Right? But people who use drugs said, don't do that. And they were like, just Narcan us or just have somebody knock on the door. Right? So like putting that choice into the hands of a human who can go and execute on that and make like a wiser decision, whether that's to Narcan, sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not because a variety of things has led to like way better results for library clients and also library staff.

Justin:
[21:10] Could you talk a little bit more about the training you do about like when to make that decision and how that's informed?

Nicole:
[21:16] Yeah, I'm not allowed to make that decision. What I'm allowed to do is send somebody a text message that says there's somebody who is in medical like need in your bathroom. And it's up to that person to know what to do. So sometimes, like if you're a Sam, and you get to work with people like Sam, and they're amazing, you're probably going to go and narcan them, right? But other times you work in a place that has different laws, or you work in a place that has, I don't know, collective bargaining agreements that are against what you're trying to do, or they have union restrictions, in which case you're going to call EMS. But what you're going to do is be the human on the other side of the door, then make sure that person does not die, right?

Jay:
[21:54] There are, this is something we think through a lot of the Lucy Parsons Center where I volunteer, which is like a radical info shop bookstore here in Boston. And our like number one rule is you do not call the cops. We do not work with the police at all. You know, we have an anti-Nazi bat in the store just in case shit happens, you know, like that kind of place. And so but we have like narcan and we have like harm reduction like stuff like in the store just in case and a lot of like new volunteers their main question is like well what do i do if someone's having a medical emergency and if it gets to the point where you have to call ems like there are ways where you can like request that police also not be sent never say it's an overdose because the cops will be sent if if you say that but if you just say you need an ambulance and but requests they don't send cops sometimes you can get away with that but also if an ambulance shows up they don't necessarily have to take the person back to the hospital they can administer care there and then the person doesn't get charged for it if they don't get put back at least in Massachusetts so like I don't know like if you have to call EMS if there's ways that you can do it like as a public servant without the cops coming but why.

Nicole:
[23:05] It goes as a text message very specifically as a text message or now we do microsoft teams too right that's the reason i can't send an alert to your general security system i don't want the cops to show up 20 times if that's not what's going on and also like that's up to you most of our situations are solved with immediate narcan and there's no need.

Jay:
[23:28] Right criminalizing.

Nicole:
[23:29] People for no reason and it also like causes is, ems fatigue you do really want showing up every single time and then the the sixth time then you actually needed them but that doesn't make it makes more sense to trust your staff give them all the tools possible and then back them up right this is why i am so enamored with sam and like what she's doing like she has like built this thing use these tools and then also built out the team behind it to support everybody who's there you haven't had an overdose death since these times that have been installed in Guelph, which is pretty good given what the state of libraries looks like today.

Samantha:
[24:08] Yeah. And like with our, with us too, like we are censors as well. Like we have another group called like the drug strategy group in our community where that is like looking for trends and like also issuing health alerts when the supply is very toxic and we are very lucky and I'm sure you won't believe me, but like Guelph police are actually like very, they're very good, very sympathetic and like our whole culture downtown has just really changed where like we if someone does need medical intervention too like i just had this happen to me last week where you know someone you know they weren't in a great shape they going to the hospital is not an option for them but they really wanted to go to the health center one of the officers happened to be on in there for a different connecting with someone else they recognize them and they're like hey i i need to go to the health center can you drive me it's like yes absolutely so we we've this whole thing has just really transformed for us of like the people who are like supporting um and working and i've given tours to guelph police to like other community partners of our brave centers and they're like and they're like wow this is like this is so different and like kind of what nicole was saying like when we do call it's like we've done a b c and d and now we need Serious.

Nicole:
[25:22] Yeah.

Samantha:
[25:22] Yeah, serious. And like everyone, like people know that now too. Like we're only calling when we absolutely have to.

Nicole:
[25:29] So my family is from Guelph, right? Like half of my family was born in Guelph. And I called them today because I was really nervous about this phone call. And I was like, oh, hey, what changes have you seen in Guelph from when you were born until now? And then also, have you seen anything with the library and downtown? And my Aunt Donna was like, yes, there's a huge increase in folks that are like unhoused, but also in the last year and a half, she's seen that like, she feels like there are fewer people who are unsupported, and they have a place to go. And my guess is, and it's just a guess, is it's because of programs like you, Sam, right? Those are the measurable impacts you're making in the community. And I love that.

Samantha:
[26:12] Like, I think the biggest, one of the biggest shocks for me too, is like, when we put in these censors, there was like a story in Guelph today about it and we were like kind of worried that the public would be like your monitor is in the bathroom like what is this and there was none of that it was actually like I'd hear from parents who were like, you know, like, hey, you might know my kid because they, this was happening to them. And like, I really appreciate everything you've been doing. Or like, you know, we hand out a lot of juice boxes and granola bars, which probably sounds ridiculous, but that makes like a huge difference, especially when we're doing wellness checks. And the amount of people who like come up and are just like thankful that we're trying to do something, it has really changed the tone. Like we, whenever the ambulance used to come, people would scatter, right? And now people are hanging around and they're like it's not as tense because there's a plan there's people are going to come and it's going to get resolved it's not always like sunshine and roses but there is a plan.

Justin:
[27:07] Yeah i think maybe i didn't ask the question right curious about like the relationship between like nicole when you go to someone who wants to install the sensors do you give them you know this is what we've learned from these programs how you can put in that a b and c plan or is it just Here's the tool. Here's what other people are doing. Or is it someone who's already got A and B and you're like, here's C. I'm trying to get like the what's the relationship and like response between Brave and the people you're working with?

Nicole:
[27:38] Yeah, so I only got access to being a full member of the co-op in November of last year. So like as a co-op member, I'm brand new. I've been fighting it for years to try and get here. My little sister died from an overdose. She died in the bathroom. It sucks. These sensors would have saved her. I care. On like a very personal level. I wanted access to their data, right? so now that I get to be in this spot I can see like okay libraries are I don't have to tell you guys this but libraries are sort of the new front line of the war on drugs what do we do now how do we protect library staff how do we protect clients so so far what I've been doing is reaching out to every single library system in Canada, but to move into the States in like a month or two, question mark. And my call is always like, hi, my name is Nicole. My little sister died of an overdose in the bathroom. What's your plan to stay safe? I don't have much more than that, right? I don't know that any of us have anything more than like, what is the plan to stay safe for like your staff and your patrons? This works sometimes.

Samantha:
[28:41] Yeah, like I think for us too, like Other libraries I've talked to, if you're just installing sensors because you think that's going to stop it, you're going to be disappointed. I learned early on I can't prevent a drug poisoning. All I can really do is do my best to respond to it when it happens. That's what harm reduction is. But generally, if you're looking at sensors, I find, you've already started. You're on that path to harm reduction. So it's kind of a natural fit. you've probably tried some other things first too and you're just like building building it on.

Nicole:
[29:15] Oh my gosh they've probably tried so many things my favorite thing to talk about when it comes to like sam and overdoses and libraries is sleeping policies justin what's your library sleeping policy or what was it before you quit well.

Justin:
[29:28] It's an academic library so i mean it just the building closes so.

Nicole:
[29:32] Um there though.

Jay:
[29:33] No universities while.

Justin:
[29:36] It's open you mean.

Jay:
[29:36] Yeah yeah like students falling to sleep with their desks and stuff yeah.

Nicole:
[29:40] That's normal okay jay what do you do.

Jay:
[29:42] So at the computers you can't fall asleep so if you're using like the library computers a library employee can come and like wake you up and be like hey you need to stay awake and if you know if it happens so many times then they can't use they have to get off the computer but they can totally go somewhere else in in the library so yeah you see like we have like our regulars like every morning when i get to work, I kind of see the same people getting into the elevators with me and everything. They usually have all their stuff with them. They usually have sleeping bags. People will sleep outside as well. I don't think there's an anti-sleeping ban except when using the computers.

Nicole:
[30:25] In Vancouver and most of the libraries in BC, and Ontario actually, I'm pretty sure Sam can agree with me, there's an anti-sleeping policy, which I thought made sense. until I talked to Sam. And she was like, well, would you kick a baby out for sleeping in the carrier? No I would not do that what are you talking about that's insane right and she was like well what about like a noble gentleman that fell asleep and you know his glasses have sort of like slipped up his head and he's reading the New York Times would you kick him out if he was reading a newspaper in the corner and the answer there is no as well and so she introduced this idea to me of respectful sleeping which Sam you're so much smarter than me I know you can explain this better but it's like Yeah.

Samantha:
[31:10] So we did, I think it's common and like for her from other libraries too, it's like a no sleeping policy. You can't sleep.

Jay:
[31:16] Yeah.

Samantha:
[31:17] So we did have a lot of staff who like just kept having to wake people up. And as you kind of mentioned, that was not going over very well. Like you're constantly waking someone up. They're obviously going to become escalated and you know, it's not, it's not a good scene. And then you're looking at like a ban for someone because they've gotten aggressive and you're sort of setting people up to fail. So like through conversations with staff And like, and our partners too, the idea of like respectful sleeping was suggested. So what that means for us is like, you have to be in a chair and you have to keep your stuff with you. And if we don't know you, we're going to do like wellness checks, but it's as simple as just like a, Hey, just checking in. Can you give me a thumbs up? Or if you're good, usually if it's the first time we're meeting someone, we drop off like a granola bar and a juice box.

Samantha:
[32:01] And really like the rationale behind that is like, I'm like, if I have an issue, I want to just like hyper-focus on like what the actual issue is. So we did have patrons too who like be very concerned about sleeping and kind of like what i was saying nicole is like we don't care if a baby's sleeping so like why why do we care if an adult's sleeping and it's like well we care because there might be something wrong right so let's like hyper focus on like what could be wrong so if someone you know is is living rough and is tired like let's ask like it just again have a conversation like if i am worried someone's used or or that kind of thing we'll just we'll check more but yeah it's just like hey i've been awake for three days. I've been walking around for three days and I'm just exhausted now. It's like, you know what? That's valid reason like when i started at guelph public library i just come off a mat leave and like i was also exhausted so i get it and like as we i learn more about like mental health everything too like i'm always really floored by like how we all know that you need sleep but it's like so hard to get sleep which is i could go on about that forever too but yeah so it's just like respectful sleeping and as we're checking in on people too like it might just be like hey hey.

Samantha:
[33:10] Just make sure your bag's like tucked under your legs. You don't want it to get stolen, right? Like it's these ways to check in with people to make sure they're okay, but to also like make them feel like they're welcome because they are. And, you know, we just want everyone to, you know, keep the peace, keep it, you know, keep temperatures like the temperature low and that kind of thing, right? So yeah, it's not a big deal. Like when I first started, definitely it seemed like it was a huge deal. And when people do fall asleep at their computers too, it's sometimes actually just a gentle conversation of like, can I get you get you to a chair and like I have a regular security guard who is like a gentle giant like he is just I it is it floors me that he can just like de-escalate something by walking into a room and he can have someone screaming at him and then they're giving him a hug at the end of it so yeah he often will help people get to a chair too and then you know sleep for five hours and they're okay if.

Nicole:
[33:59] I could take Sam and make like 20 versions of her and drop her down in every library system across north america i feel like a lot of these problems would be solved but i'm not allowed to copy people and that's weird.

Samantha:
[34:11] I like how you phrased it.

Justin:
[34:14] That you're not allowed not that you can't do it like you started doing it and like the government showed up mad scientist.

Samantha:
[34:22] Yeah like for us too like i learned so much from i've like already talked about it like the welcoming streets team and like our like stonehenge and just like everything about like wraparound services with like our shelter system and just learning from all of them has been like a game changer like if you have any of those resources you know like you probably do and you don't realize it and just like getting out there and trying to connect with people like the first time i found out we had an outreach nurse was because there was someone sleeping in our bush when i first started and like this guy just went over and like asked for a thumbs up and I'm like who like who are you and he's like oh I'm the outreach nurse I I can do I can just come out and like check on people and now we have like a partnership with him that he comes to the library every Tuesday night to like to just meet with people to help do wound care and like he goes to other locations and encampments and whatnot too so it's like the simplest connections can just really grow into something else I.

Nicole:
[35:18] Was talking about this with a different library yesterday Sam I was talking about building relationship with clients and I And I was like, okay, you're welcome to purchase these things from our co-op. And I hope you do. Because like, one, they're life-saving. And two, you need them. But also, if you do all this stuff and you're not doing that relationship building, if you're not like interacting with your clients, if they don't trust you, if you're not like working back and forth with them, there's no point. Like talked about you directly I think I quoted you poorly probably yeah.

Samantha:
[35:45] It is hard like it's hard work like I'm not you know you can be really tapped out and it's not just me too like I I get to work with like really awesome people who are so committed to and you know like we we try to work as a team and like tap in and out when when you just you know when you're like not you can't always solve it for people too and like maybe I am triggering for someone so someone else can can step in for me and and triage it that way too right.

Nicole:
[36:10] It's also like not what you signed up for right like i feel like people who are a little bit younger like maybe gen z who are joining libraries now understand that like this is the front line of most social issues right like these are frontline workers if you are a library worker you're a hero and you're also definitely part of leftist frontline i have no doubts about that but maybe if you joined 10 years ago you didn't know that right like you don't plan on being this person or this thing when you sign up to work with the library.

Justin:
[36:39] It's interesting because this did come up in library school and i think whenever you had a lot of librarians and training because i was in library school 10 years ago so a lot of people we were talking about like because you mentioned i i just had like a reverie because sam mentioned shower stations and we were talking about like how useful those would be in so many public libraries and would solve other problems like people bathing in the sink or people having like a really bad smell and you know distracting other people and it's like what if we just had public showers and more libraries you know then you can bike to work yeah and it was it was also just like you put people in a room and present them with these problems they come up with really straightforward solutions that we're still implementing a decade later so it's not that We didn't see it coming. It's it's. But yeah, I'm sure it's more and more. I think there's also a political aspect of realizing the public library is one of those last public facing fronts.

Nicole:
[37:38] It is that maybe people are understanding more last free third space that exists. It is the current front line. All of this.

Jay:
[37:47] Yeah and i think newer librarians are way more aware of the fact that like libraries aren't neutral like no matter what kind of library you work at or what you do as a librarian because i feel like so this is not related to like front end stuff necessarily i mean i i can make the case that it is but library of congress subject headings all right they just put out the proposal tuesday to change gulf of mexico to gulf of america and denali to mount mckinley like that's a proposal they only gave one day for people to comment on it the fucking comments.

Jay:
[38:27] On the autocat listserv which like one that's the main reason to subscribe to listservs is the drama but there were people like defending this choice and being like get the politics out of the autocat listserv and i'm just like me and my like co-worker who sits next to me and we have similar politics just like kept like we just like kept who's also a catalog we just like kept looking up over our tests and like looking at each other like anytime like a new email would come in from this listserv because we're both on it and sometimes he would just like say something like quoting it and i just feel like like like but these are like old guard like librarians who feel this way where i feel like new guard librarians like oh yeah that that facade is long gone like they don't you know the kids are all right as they say yeah.

Nicole:
[39:20] I mean at this level like when we're talking about life or death we're talking about who's gonna die in your bathroom.

Jay:
[39:25] And like to.

Nicole:
[39:26] Library staff i'm talking about which one of your staff members is going to go open that door and find somebody who has passed away right who's going to get the the oh i i feel awkward about this but like i'm approaching you at the front desk or whatever I think somebody has problems in this bathroom and then you have to go and then find out that somebody has a bathroom like, personal yes political but like that is very very personal and i will always tell you that the personal is political right but in this case this is about like how we interact as humans on a regular basis and yes politics and yes there are a lot of things going on but kind of fuck that because i don't want you to have to be that person that goes and answers that like call to go to washroom what i want you to do is get a text message that's like hey jay please go check on back in number two right where you make that knock and you're like okay i have to decide what i'm going to administer whether i'm going to call like whatever your policy is right sorry i was really happy no.

Justin:
[40:20] No it's i was going to say the politicization of of libraries is sort of an inescapable fact and i think more librarians are aware of that and it wasn't something librarians did and i i think there are some librarians who think like you guys made us political talking like other librarians like leftist librarians like you guys made us political it's like no the politicization came to libraries they've always been political but like this current engagement with politics wasn't something libraries brought on themselves people are just reacting to it and so it's people are aware of that political reality which is actually what i wanted to ask when you're talking about well first of all i guess i wanted to ask what's what's the trend for criminalization of homelessness in Canada? Like, what direction is it going? How have you noticed the politics on that changing? And what might that do for these kinds of programs?

Nicole:
[41:12] Really scary question, given that we have an upcoming election and we're struggling with U.S. tariffs. Right now, homelessness is not criminalized in Canada. Yes, you can be removed from where you are staying currently, but it's nothing close to like... So I spent, I don't know, six months in Austin, Texas last year, And we were talking about like criminalizing camping, which is like criminalizing existing on the street, question mark.

Jay:
[41:39] Yeah, it's criminalized in Boston.

Nicole:
[41:41] Yeah, it's like, yeah, we don't have that. That doesn't mean that our people are any closer to safe than yours are necessarily, right? We just don't do it the same way.

Jay:
[41:51] Yeah, they actually used those anti-encampment laws against the Palestine protests that were happening on campuses.

Nicole:
[41:59] Oh, great.

Jay:
[42:00] Yeah, that's what happened at the Emerson campus because they don't have a quad like Harvard does, right? And so they were in this sort of public alley space, I think, is where their encampment was. And so, yeah, those laws were used against protesters.

Nicole:
[42:15] Yeah, I made a phone call before this recording to talk about Guelph. And I know that they had an encampment downtown. They got cleared out soon, right?

Samantha:
[42:24] Yeah, so I can speak to a little bit about that. Because I was invited to sit on another committee about basic needs and trying to connect people to resources. So there was an encampment downtown. And it did get dismantled. But part of the plan with that, too, is trying to put people, give people options. I'm not going to say they're still encampments, but they're not in, like, the downtown core as much.

Nicole:
[42:49] The only thing to come in last year is, like, clear them out. Like, they literally come in with city workers, and they'll just, like, lift, like, all their shit. And they'll be like, okay, you have to go somewhere else. But we don't have a somewhere else to go to.

Samantha:
[43:00] Oh, yeah. So that didn't happen for us, thankfully. It was people did get storage. And then there's, like, our emergency shelter. And then there's, like, another shelter. That a little more long term. So and then there also was like a winter response plan where people, some people were put into hotels. And I know for our community, it's like, the way our agencies run it's like the idea of like a housing first goal so it's like what do you need to be able to get to housing like if it's like we have some communities in guelph that are like uh it's you have a rental it's like you sign a lease but like maybe you need someone to come in and like just help you get your breakfast ready or like you just need reminders for certain things as you you know if you've been living rough for like years and years and years can we just go Just.

Nicole:
[43:46] Quickly going back two steps, American friends. One, storage is available. What? Storage is available. Secondly, housing first. Can you imagine the like no camping, camping ban, whatever it is with a housing first policy? And then you get to talk to people like Sam.

Jay:
[44:05] Yeah, I think Salt Lake City had a pilot program maybe 10 years back or something of putting homeless people in hotels or in basic apartments or something. Weirdly, Salt Lake City was one of the places that had a very successful program around that. I think it has since ended. but yeah i know some places in the united states are like trying that out but it's not very popular michael hobbs weirdly is like of several podcasts has done a lot of reporting and journalism around this topic that was like one of his like starter areas i think.

Samantha:
[44:43] Yeah and it can't like we're all trying to figure it out too right sorry like it's i mean not every community in canada is facing this and um i think there's a lot of different approaches for how to do it. And local government plays a role, provincial government plays a role, and then the federal government plays a role in this too. So it's complicated. And yeah, I just... The good thing for us, I guess, is that like there are so many agencies and smart people working on this that we get to partner with them and, you know, we can kind of work together and try to support someone.

Nicole:
[45:13] Justin, I'm dying to hear what you think about this. I'm dying.

Justin:
[45:17] What, about the Housing First policy?

Nicole:
[45:18] Sure. Or like what should happen when we like remove encampments?

Justin:
[45:22] What should happen, you mean?

Nicole:
[45:23] Yeah. What do you think should go on? What should that look like?

Justin:
[45:26] I think we should re-common the land. I mean, barring that. I mean, like you mentioned Austin, like I've been to Austin a few times and you were saying like, you know, there's anti-camping law. And if you have ever walked around Austin at night, you know that that is an impossible law to enforce because there's not enough beds. There's literally nowhere for people to go. There's nothing but empty hill country all around Austin. There's no place for people. There's no options for anyone to go anywhere. Is sleep outside the starvation army and that's what they do that whole row is like that is where people live that's their home like there is no reason to be clearing out encampments because they have no other choice like people have a right to live in a public space so i mean obviously you have to have a housing first process like you know even if i'm just talking like a very sort of base level as to be meeting a basic need for shelter you can't just displace people indefinitely unless you want them to no longer exist, which is, you know, ethnic cleansing and a genocide. That's what you would be doing, is trying to kill these populations, which I think is probably the effect of these criminalization laws across the U.S. Is that they're viewed as surplus population. They want to just keep moving them and moving them until they're no longer alive.

Nicole:
[46:42] Or they're imprisoned. Imprisoned.

Justin:
[46:45] Yeah, imprisoning too, because that's also lucrative business. And I notice that there's a new crop of kids coming up because they're they're still doing they've rediscovered private prisons and they're like private prison's bad and it's like all prisons function the exact same way the only difference in a private prison is you have slightly fewer rights because the guards aren't government employees so they can beat you up more but that's really the only difference like the the all of the the privatization has already happened the securist tablets the commissary stuff like all that's already privatized so it doesn't matter what kind of jail you're putting people in Yeah. Was that the thoughts you were trying to get out of me?

Nicole:
[47:22] A little bit. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about stuff like, so when I call places, I'm calling all these libraries. I'm like, I'm very lucky. Also, librarians are like very fastidious. So I call them, they call me back, which is like wild, right? I have like almost a one for one ratio of answers. Insane to me. And we're talking about like, okay, OPA poisoning in your spaces, right? Oftentimes, I do have a question that you just brought up, Justin, which I would never say. But it's like, what do you want people to do? And do you want them to just die? And I think there is sometimes like an implied yes.

Justin:
[47:58] Which is not always implied either.

Nicole:
[48:00] So no one said that to me. But also, I'm like a woman calling talking about my sister who died, right? Yeah, deeply uncomfortable. yeah.

Justin:
[48:08] The purpose of a policy is what it does and if it kills people.

Nicole:
[48:11] Then that's what the purpose of the policy was completely and it depersonalizes it by making it policy instead of making it personal and that's how we have community leaders we have the sams we have the co-ops like we've got the people like you guys who are talking about it like this is why we exist right if i could again if i don't say i'm 20 times over my library death problem in canada would be solved i just need her 20 times and then her community moves as she goes.

Jay:
[48:35] And not that drug poisoning and opioid poisoning and overdosing and all that. It's not that it's limited to unhoused populations. Obviously, anybody can overdose. But also, I feel like public library workers or any person who works with the public, really, whether that be in a university or not, or in a public library or not, or whatever, like Justin said like the purpose of a policy is what it does. How many policies does your library have that their real purpose is to make sure that homeless people don't use the library?

Justin:
[49:12] Tons of them.

Jay:
[49:13] Most of them.

Nicole:
[49:15] Not if you're in Sam's library and this is like the thing that I have to like highlight again. This is the sleeping policy. The no sleeping policy, that's an anti-homeless policy versus respectful sleeping that we get to talk with when we get to talk with brilliant minds like Sam, right? When she talks about like So there's a fridge available and it's not like a community fridge, but if you have something you need to store in a fridge, we will let you put in this, like all of this stuff. It's the exact antithesis of being anti-houseless and being like community oriented. And this is why I'm so like hugely in love with this concept.

Samantha:
[49:51] Yeah. Like another thing we did too was it's really, you need an address to get a library card. So we actually were able to do a digital access card instead, which was, we just need your name. And then it's not a full card, but it has all our digital resources. Then you can take out two items at a time. And then through that conversation as well, too, it's like, hey, if someone's like, I don't have ID. I'm like, well, would you like some? Because we can connect you. It's literally down the street to go work with Legal Aid and the health center to get ID.

Nicole:
[50:20] I don't have an ID has the answer of, OK, would you like some? What? What? What?

Justin:
[50:27] Yeah, it's one of the instances of the government actually can help you, not just punish you, to paraphrase The Simpsons. But, yeah, I mean, I do hear stories about that all the time when you're talking about like temporary cards. I've heard a lot of places that do essentially set people up with temporary addresses. I forget how they work, but like temporary postal addresses. And then they use that to set up library cards as their permanent address. And that's also for like registering to vote and things like that for people who don't have a fixed address. And I have heard public libraries doing stuff like that as well. I'm not sure exactly like the process, but people have this like similar workarounds.

Jay:
[51:06] Yeah and.

Justin:
[51:07] It's a shame we have to reinvent the wheel in every single state and every single county because they don't work together right so you.

Jay:
[51:13] Have this this huge property taxes or whatever it's paying for your library card and it's like yeah most people paying those property taxes aren't using the library so people who do use the library should get to use it god damn it or the property for that matter yeah exactly recombing.

Justin:
[51:29] The land anyway.

Jay:
[51:29] Yeah yeah like this is also like an abolitionist issue this is a housing justice like issue like this is a what we call in one of my political orgs a transversal issue that like affects everything right you can't just it's not just like labor organizing it's not just this kind of organizing it like affects and weaves through everything yeah.

Nicole:
[51:52] I mean you can't talk about like opioid poisoning without talking about where it came from right.

Jay:
[51:57] Yeah and.

Nicole:
[51:58] It came from this whole thing which is like a million which is why.

Jay:
[52:02] I think.

Nicole:
[52:03] A co-op is best suited to like address it.

Justin:
[52:05] We talked with qll about this because often people will hear about like something you're doing and it's like really cool and they want to do it too is it a model is brave a model that people should duplicate in their way or should they focus on supporting what brave is doing yes.

Nicole:
[52:21] They should copy us also So they should support us. Everything that we own, there is no IP. All open source all of it that's right completely like from our data all the way through to like how our hardware works everything you can access online you could duplicate us in boston you could have us in seattle you could have us all these places if you don't want to do that order from us great but like you could do this all.

Jay:
[52:46] The radical mutual aid orgs who are listening to this podcast episode go do that now so yeah.

Justin:
[52:52] Put it next to the hormone factory yeah.

Jay:
[52:56] Although like the trans witches in your neighborhood who are making their own hrt now.

Justin:
[53:00] Have you has audrey told you about her friend i think maybe her girlfriend who has like 50 years of hrt store yeah that's pretty cool yeah okay we usually only go an hour is there any final thing that you would want people to know in terms of contacting you if they want to do something similar or actually no i have one more question i keep getting like a hacker vibe from this is this started by like computer people who are really into open source stuff now.

Nicole:
[53:29] It just worked out that way started by somebody who was independently wealthy saw people dying thought i was stupid and wanted to change it which is great and he's currently our ceo doesn't take a salary it's all public you can check it and hasn't for eight years we're not hacker people we are technical people sometimes like My background is technically development. We just like people and don't want people to die because they use drugs. And if that means that I get to use my voice to help other people like Sam. So I do this back work, right? And then people like Sam show up. And I'm like, y'all should talk to this lady because she is incredible. And I get to go fight for that. My evening was so well spent. So thank you. She's incredible.

Jay:
[54:11] Give Sam a raise.

Nicole:
[54:13] Copy her a million places.

Samantha:
[54:16] It's like a team effort though like really give.

Jay:
[54:19] Everybody a raise there.

Samantha:
[54:20] Yeah great, yeah like our our team at the library is just so committed to and like our community too like we are very lucky we have there's just a lot of people who who care and you know it's not like yes tensions can be high but like it's we're trying to figure this out and and work together And there's just, there's so many great people I've learned from, like who I work with and partners that support us. So yeah, even just like, this was like not a hard thing for our senior management team to like do. They're like, yeah, let's do it. Like, like they went, like my CEO went with me to like, go look at things. My, the deputy like went on the CTS tour with me. Like, it's like everyone at every level is involved. So yeah, we are very lucky that way.

Justin:
[55:11] Great. No, thank you so much. Any contact information will be in the notes. So any way that you would prefer to be contacted, we'll just put it there so you can see it in the bottom. Sam and Nicole, thanks so much for coming on.

Samantha:
[55:21] Yeah, thanks for having us.

Justin:
[55:23] All right. And good night.