Untitled

Wolf vs Fem:

Wolf R1:

- Hyperion flies at Mach 7+ speeds, consistently

- Hyperion will use this speed to ram opponents as his first action, and is strong enough to punch people through the Washington Monument

- Hulk overtakes a plane before it can hit someone

It looks like Hulk is moving in the opposite direction to the plane to me, though this is still vaguely superhuman speed

- Hulk lands on top of a plane

Better

- Hulk blitzes time accelerated cowboys and is generally FTE

- Faster than someone who catches super arrows

I'm sure this is probably true but you still need to post the scaling for me to consider it

- Hulk strong

Yeah

- Garou/Superman are both hurt/staggered by weaker opponents than Hulk

Yeah

- Hyperion tanks big craters and strikes that move tectonic plates

These don't look that impressive to me aside from maybe the tectonic plates one, but I do buy he can take this level of striking repeatedly
based on what's posted

- Hulk is durable + gets stronger when angry

- Hulk resists radiation

I agree but I don't see why this is relevant

- Both Hulk and Hyperion are super resistant to piercing

Agree

- Huk's lifting >> fem's team


Fem R1:

- Superman will fight Hyperion and Hulk will fight Garou

I'm judging this as if it was true give both debaters agree on it, but I'm not sure I 100% buy this becoming 2 separate 1v1s given how close both teams spawn

- Superman's lifting >>> Hyperion

- Superman will tank Hyperion's charge and turn this into a grapple, which he wins. Several feats of Superman grabbing people and shoving them through buildings

I'm buying superman being stronger than Hyperion so far. Not fully sold on his durability, but the same goes for Hyperion

- Superman flies at mach + and has better reaction feats

- Superman's heat vision > Hyperion's and Superman does use it

I agree with both of these

- Garou is fast + skilled. Minigun feat

- Garou hits internals, which Hulk is vulnerable to

Hulk does seem more resistant to this sort of attack than most opponents, but the tier justification still exists and does a lot of work here

- Crater feat + Darkshine scaling for striking

- More Darkshine scaling + Rover feat for durability

The second one looks borderline OOT but I'll chalk it to surface area ig

- Garou can redirect Hulk's strikes back to him

- Garou fights Hulk type characters a lot, still wins

- Garou also gets stronger the longer a fight goes

I buy this enough to make me say neither character really gets a significant edge over the other by fight lasting long

- Superman also has tectonic plates feats


General thoughts so far:


Superman vs Hyperion:

1) Superman seems stronger than Hyperion, regardless on if you are comparing striking, lifting or heat vision

2) Hyperion flies faster than Superman but has worse reactions

3) Both Superman and Hyperion are stronger than they are durable

As things stand, I think Superman is cleanly winning this matchup for me so far. I do think Hyperion can hurt him, and he flies fast enough to tag him,
but if he doesn't take him out in the first move he seems pretty cleanly outclassed in any sort of extended exchange, and I don't think he does quite
oneshot here

Hulk vs Garou:

1) Hulk is stronger than Garou and he wins immediately if he grabs him

2) Garou has a significant speed + skill advantage and can make Hulk punch himself

3) Neither can oneshot the other via striking, though Hulk can take far more hits from Garou than the reverse

4) Hulk moves faster than Garou (as in, travel speed)

This one's super close imo. As I see it, Garou's speed makes it very hard for Hulk to land a punch on him and Hulk isn't durable enough that he can't eventually win by punching him repeatedly, especially given his justification concedes him having vaguely human anatomy (which Garou is shown to exploit) but in my mind there's a clear difference between "can move hands fast enough to strike bullets out of the air" and "can move out of the way of Hulk running
at him", and Garou hasn't anything posted to make me think he can do the second. I do believe he can at least react to it and parry, but I don't see him coming unharmed from that interaction, which gives Hulk a semi reliable way to hurt him

Wolf r2:

- Reinforcing Hulk's strength advantage

Not much to say here. I already bought this. Bringing attention to Garou failing to deflect Darkshine is very good and does a lot of work for me. Even if Garou gets stronger than this later what's relevant is his reflection can be bruteforced through

- Several examples of Hulk leveraging his lifting against opponents

- Garou's stomp is a worse feat than Hulk's and requires more windup. His regular strikes are < the stomp

I buy this so far

- Garou's tendency to deflect is a disadvantage against someone as strong as Hulk

I agree and this is one of the biggest selling points for Hulk to me, but he also seems like someone who'd quickly adapt if deflecting doesn't work

- Deflecting bullets/punches does not translate to being good at avoiding being grabbed

I think this is fair but I don't think Hulk's fast enough to make this distinction matter that much

- Garou gets tagged by people with no speed feats

Tagging Garou is the speed feat. I don't buy this without any antifeats posted for these characters

- More cowboy posting

I don't think this changes my thoughts about this feat too much. Yes, Hulk is superhumanly fast, I buy this. But this is still very vague compared to the 
minigun. It's not a bad feat but I don't think it can carry Hulk's speed by itself

- Hulk takes no damage from his own striking

Seems legit enough, but this might be OOT if not argued carefully

- Several examples of Superman being easy to stagger

- Superman "has high hp but low durability"

I'll see what fem has to say about this but this is a confusing argument given what Hyperion's wincon is argued to be 

- More Hyperion durability feats. WAY better than R1 ones

- Direct comparison of nuke feats

Bruh

Fem R2:

- Superman does not need to chip Hyperion down

I agree that Superman's lifting/heat vision are not something Hyperion can tank. Less convinced about striking given the new feats posted in Wolf's last response, though I still believe Superman is clearly the stronger of the 2

- The feat that "doesn't hurt Hyperion" does hurt him

Yeah

- Shockwave has no collateral

It's uprooting several trees. I don't think it's a bad feat given how far it seems to travel

- Hyperion fights in a way that makes it likely for Superman to go for grapples/heat vision

- Superman does take reasonably strong hits without being staggered, and can fight people as strong as him for extended periods of time

I don't think this fully negates the antifeats for me, but it does a lot of work to downplay them to where they become a relatively minor issue

- More Garou speed + cowboy feat

Not going to say much here since I already agreed with pretty much all of this. Good response though

- Skyscraper feat

I have mixed feelings about this one. The scaling is solid, and I 100% buy Garou is meant to be stronger than these goons but it's still kind of an outlier. Ultimately, I do agree Garou probably wouldn't die if he was hit by something like this, but it's probably still hurting him a lot

Conclusions:

1) Superman vs Hyperion is a clean win for Superman imo. I don't see Hyperion having an answer to Superman grappling him, I think he probably dies to heat 
vision (tho nuke feat at least puts some doubt on that) and fem also defends the antifeats well enough for me to at least buy Hyperion doesn't oneshot
him with his initial tackle. The fact that Superman also has better striking and better reactions is just the cherry on top.

2) Hulk vs Garou is still ridiculously close to me. If Hulk had a better speed feat I think he'd take it pretty cleanly, but as it stands, I think he'd have to work really hard to grab Garou. On the other hand, I think Wolf is correct Garou would at least try to deflect Hulk at first, and I think those interactions do not go very well for him. Hulk's travel speed, while vague, is still much better than Garou's nonexistant mobility as argued, and I don't think Garou has the greatest answers for Hulk tackling at him, given the strength disparity. Fem calling  out Hulk's justification  together with Garou's tendency to target weak spots does a lot of lifting and is ultimately what leads me to believe this is still even. In the end, I think 9/10 times Superman kills Hyperion before this fight is done, at which point it becomes a 2v1 which Hulk will have a lot of trouble with

Fem wins.